Which pro runner had the slowest high school times?

Colorado BOI wrote:

Scott Fauble never broke 4:20 in high school.

He did, actually. 4:19. But all his times were at altitude. Probably worth 4:13-14. Also one of those guys that gets better as the distance increases. He was an FL qualifier and ran 15:18 in CO.

What would have happened had Fischer been a 9:00 guy in HS? If smart intelligent coaching and working dann hard at altitude could result in such a huge proportional improvement, a 9:00 starting point would have him dropping Kipchoge like a bad habit.

To be fair, the thread title question is which pros RAN THE SLOWEST TIMES in HIGH SCHOOL. yea we get it, most of them were talented but late bloomers or came into the sport later , or had bad coaching, or injuries or something.

former Iowa great wrote:

The stats don't back you up. Many more high school runners hit the times that you listed than what college runners hit the times you listed.

Of course, this is not 100% guaranteed but it's pretty reliable. The key is the transition from high school to college and having a competent coach who develops the athlete over a 4 year period. Again, we're talking about mid-distance runners (1500-10,000). Patience and a consistent training plan will more times than not produce substantial improvement. Again, the greatest improvement is going to take place during the next year 4-year cycle. You need to remember that this is an 8-year process and doesn't happen overnight for the majority. Another key factor is the mental aspect. Those early years out of college are pretty tough but are also necessary to fully realize if you're cut out to be a professional world-class runner. It's pretty much a critical period of developing mental toughness and "buying in" to your goals.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

He’s got no talent/speed, but worked harder than anyone else I've seen. Proof you don't need much talent for good performances in long-distance running.

Respectfully disagree. With those times he had oodles of talent. He just needed to train awhile to bring it out.

LateRunnerPhil, do you honestly believe that Reed Fischer just "works harder" than other pros because his high school PRs were slower than theirs? Or that Grant Fischer "doesn't have to train as hard" because his high school times were fast?

Obviously neither one of these things are true. Both train as hard as they currently can. As do many serious runners. Pros just run faster.

However, this would be an interesting experiment. Like, if you ran under 4:05 and 8:50 in HS you are not allowed to exceed 70mpw as a pro. But if you were over 10min you must build to 120mpw and train insane after graduation. Who wins in that scenario? It's stupid, because it doesn't consider the broader context that produced the high school marks.

And it gives incentive for talents like Fischer to sandbag in HS and train harder later on.

Which is what happened with almost every runner mentioned in this thread, intentionally or not.

Can we name one runner who trained hard and intelligently in HS (at least 50mpw as a senior), ran mediocre times, and then developed into an elite?

I don't think that he works harder than other pros. Maybe even less. But since he is/was not as talented, it took a longer time for him to become good, and he only became good at certain distances. He can't create a range like Bekele from 1500-Marathon.

Grant Fischer and Justyn Knight are way more talented than Reed Fischer. They would NEVER run 23:54 5k, NEVER NEVER NEVER (excluding ridiculous scenarios like them gaining 150 lbs). They would be substantially better on 40-50 mpw than Reed Fischer would be.

Reed Fischer trained as hard as others during HS. The reason he was slower in HS is, because on 50 mpw he will not be good, since he is 90%+ slow-twitch fibers. That mileage works for the talented ones, like Grant Fischer and Justyn Knight, but for Reed Fischer it wasn't enough. Also, he wasn't racing 10k's and half marathons in HS, so his best distances weren't utilized. He got a LOT better during college, closing the gap and then after joining Tinman Elite (and he had many offers from pro teams) reached an even higher level. Brogan Austin did the same btw, from nobody to US marathon champ.

Corona High wrote:

Com Kinley wrote:

100% Kim Conley

Didn't Kim run 4:53 for 1600 her senior year? That's nothing to sneeze at.

Look at her XC times. Best she ran was 18:23 at Woodward. That's crawling. Also has no speed with a 2:20 800.

The first 5k time that anyone runs doesn't mean a damn thing. Do you know for a fact he was racing and not jogging it? Do you know for a fact that he was wearing spikes? Do you know the conditions of the course? Or the weather? Could have been 110 degrees and humid. He could have been 4'6 tall when he ran that before puberty.

Why would you EVER look at the worst race someone ran to evaluate talent. It's dumb. It's also not what the this thread is about.

Reed Fischer ran 9:23 in the 3200 in high school. That's a very good time, 4:41 in the 1600 twice in a row.

If he was running all out, I agree that there are many people that would never run as slow as 23:54, even getting off the couch. Impossible to know how seriously he was taking it.

birdbeard wrote:

If he was running all out, I agree that there are many people that would never run as slow as 23:54, even getting off the couch. Impossible to know how seriously he was taking it.

What advice you would give to younger athletes?

Reed Fischer: Don’t be intimidated and don’t think you’ll never be fast. My first 5K (Freshman year), I ran a 23:54, and barely made it under 21:00 by the end of the season. I looked at the varsity guys and thought to myself “They’re sooooo fast. I’ll NEVER be that fast!” Things have changed since then...

Milesplit interview:

Just accept the fact that he was much slower than other pro runners when he started, and that he never had - AND STILL DOESN'T HAVE - the good basic speed that many elites tend to have. Most kids quit running and never get to the 10+ years that Reed Fischer has under his belt, without any interruptions. Many HS/college coaches overtrain the kids or cause injuries with overracing them or doing races in combination with hard workouts or just in generally too much speed and anaerobic stuff. Then the kids get demotivated and quit. Who knows how good as runner they could have been? Training pays off. Big Time. But it needs to be done over many, many years.

I nominate you for the most obnoxious troll of the letsrun.com awards.

I do not think that anyone argues that Reed is likely less talented in pure speed department than say Grant or some other athletes. That does not make him less talented overall. Aerobic ability (although takes time to develop) is also a talent. Durability one could argue is a talent without which athlete cannot reach high level as well. Both of which Reed has plenty.

As other posters indicated someone like Grant Fisher or Justyn Knight were doing other sports at high level. Meaning that they were already advanced as athletes before starting running. Had Reed done that at a high level, he would have also started off his freshmen year faster than 24 minutes or whatever he ran.

Also, do some homework on your favorites athletes as well. If you have read

article on Reed in highschool, he clearly states that CC was a social hobby for him: "If you could do it all over again what would you change about your running career in high school? - I would have started running more, sooner. For my first 3 seasons, running was purely social, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I think if I had started running with the big boys sooner I could’ve seen even more improvement than I did." So any results he might have had in high school and subsequent improvments are also product of him not really investing himself into sport from young age. Another important point is growth especially during puberty. Different people mature at different rates and if I remember from some podcasts correctly, he is one of those guys whose maturation process went into early twenties or so. The talent just took more time to show, compared to some other guys.

I hope I am not waisting my time (i am to a certain degree) in writing these replies and hope that you continue educate yourself and stop being such a fanboy. Being a fan is allright but being blind fanboy is not.

dude you need to chill with the tinman/reed fischer obsession. reed ran a 9:24 3200 - in my book that's pretty damn good. i'm from the twin cities and if reed had been competing anywhere outside the highly competitive distance running bubble that Hopkins sits in, he would have been crushing noobs in almost every race he ran. he would have finished half a lap ahead of Brian Sell.

this idea you seem to be obsessed with of "he was slow, but then he grinded much harder than everyone else and that's what makes him great" is a very appealing idea to a certain subset of new tryhard runners of which you seem to be one. it's tiring. nobody gets to a 9:24 HS 3200 or a 61 half as a pro without a substantial amount of talent. talent != 52 second 400 speed either. read "the sports gene."

Again, Reed Fischer ran 23:54 as freshman, barely sub 21 after one year of training and ended with 4:29/9:24 (mile/2-mile) in HS.

Do you know how fast Rupp, Ritz, Alan Webb, etc. all were in HS? Those are real, natural talents. Same with Grant Fisher and Justyn Knight. They could do anything in HS and become super good, around 4 flat mile level. Doesn't matter if they follow Daniel's, or Lydiard, or Pfitzinger, or Igloi, or Tinman, etc. These are the typical pro runners that we know and see.

Reed Fischer does NOT work harder than them, they work just as hard. But they wouldn't need to work as hard as Reed Fischer does to become good, since their talent really shows in anything they do running wise.

Reed Fischer is one runner that out of a group of many modestly talented people became really good. Most runners give up along the way, or are not willing to make the sacrifices it takes to become pro. Nothing in HS indicated that Reed Fischer would become a pro eventually and run a 1:01 half. He did not have the same natural abilities as the other runners I mentioned. And be honest, do you really think without the other sports they did Grant Fisher and Justyn Knight would have debuted with a 24 min 5k like Reed Fischer? No way!

The Hunter's coached Alan Webb for his freshman year in HS. They said Drew Hunter (who I consider to be between Reed Fischer and the megatalents mentioned above) was nothing like Alan Webb. Alan Webb was in his own league. And I'm sure most here would agree that Drew Hunter is already a very talented runner.

Some of you have this backward. Fischer doesn't train harder than the other 61 minute guys. He just didn't try as hard as his counterparts when he was younger and he doesn't have as much speed so he gets better at longer distances. Using the twisted logic, the guys running 10.6 for 100 meters must be more talented than Hunter or Fisher because they had to run 50 MPW and move up to the mile and 2 mile in HS to find success while the 100 meter studs only did 15MPW.

Here we go again. Again, Alan Web was exceptional swimmer before highschool and before dropping swimming in favor of running before his sophomore year. To quote his wife: "I know as a freshman he was less than a second from making US Juniors in almost all 5 events he swam during a weekend meet (and failed to qualify). The next year he dropped swimming and only ran.". Swimming is obviously aerobic event, not to mention the hours that swimmers put in from early age with early two a days workouts, etc. You might be more familiar with it given you triathlon background.

I do not think anyone can say what Fisher, Webb or whoever could have run their freshmen year if they weren't doing sports. If they were sedentary and not doing anything during pre-high school years, they now would not be where they are or were in high school. There are so many factors that influence athlete's capabilities and genetics are only one component. As someone has said before, it's very likely that most talented distance runner or sprinter in the world might be living sedentary life and not even thinking about sports. Or doing other sports.

To sum up, Reed Fischer is outstanding talent who has also improved greatly from high school days due to many factors among them would be:

1) Lack of serious training in high school

2) Lack of focus towards running in high school

3) Late or prolonged puberty

4) Better coaching/more focus in college/after college

5) Great durability

6) Great aerobic talent as well as threshold capacity. ie. fractional vo2 utilization

Not being too focused in high school is not a knock. At that level it's more important so that kids would enjoy the sport and hopefully would continue doing it throughout their lives, rather than seek best possible result regardless of consequences.

Ok, I just relistened to his podcast where he listed all his HS PRs.

End of Freshman year: 23:54 5k

Sophomore year: in track, 10:50 2-mile, and sub 5 mile

Junior year: 17 min 5k (XC), 10:20 2-mile, and 4:40-4:42 mile

Senior year: 16 min 5k (XC), 9:30-9:40 during all 2-mile races, and one breakout race in 9:23, 4:29 mile

Never broke 2 minutes in the 800m despite trying each year. Didn't have the foot speed. If you ask me, that's not the HS resume of an "outstandingly talented" runner. That resume is more like the average HS kid that hopes to walk-on D1 (like Reed Fischer did) or already accept a college career in a D2/D3 school. The top D1 schools won't even raise an eyebrow for a 4:29/9:23 kid, there are bigger fish in the sea to get.

Fun fact: Open Mile PR as pro - 4:18/3:53 (1500). Says he got no leg speed and is running marathon due that.

https://finalsurge.libsyn.com/reed-fisher

If the 10k was an event in HS, you would have witnessed his talent.

4:29/9:23 (2x4:40) for me indicates truly exceptional long distance talent. When you take into account that it’s highschooler, that’s absolutely outstanding endurance ability.

If talent for you equals speed, then none of distance or mid distance runners are truly talented. Running 47 sec 400m might not even win some high school state meets.