It is this simple. Michael Jordan was the best offensive player in the league and, despite not winning as many DPOY titles as he should have (because they couldn't have him win everything), was also the best defensive player in the league. Ask the players.
He's also the greatest offensive player in the history of the game (leads regular and playoff ppg).
He did all of this in THE TOUGHEST era of the National Basketball Association. He had to deal with all-time great teams like the Bird, McHale, Parish led Celtics. The Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Mahorn led Pistons. The Magic, Worthy, Divac led Lakers. Eastern conference with Ewing. Oakley. Starks. Miller, Ellis. Finals? Barkley. Drexler. Payton. Kemp. Malone. Stockton. I mean do I need to keep going here? The path to prosperity in the NBA was never more treacherous and difficult in the late 80's to late 90's.Period.
The majority of complete idiots who can't grasp the greatness of Jordan and how far ahead he is of anyone else point to Lebron because they simply can't be bothered to educate and immerse themselves on anything beyond the current micro-bubble of time they believe is all dominant and important because they exist in it. Stat wise better? Really? In rebounds, assists and yes. In points and steal no. In blocks they are the same (career 0.8 bpg). So what stats shoe Lebron to be superior exactly? How about career PER? Nope thats MJ. Six trips to the finals and six wins, versus 7 trips for Lebron and 3.
People point to Lebron single-handedly taking care of a 73 win team and leading a never-seen-before comeback from 1-3 in the finals. Great - how about losing to the Dallas Mavericks and being bailed out by a lucky bounce rebound and insane clutch 3 pointer from Ray Allen?
But this isn't about Lebron - it's about Michael Jordan. I love Larry, respect the hell out of Wilt and Kareem - all of them. But nobody touches Jordan and in the era of great players becoming snapchat bros and wanting to joining teams to jack each other off on a whim, I am very confident that we will never see this greatness ever surpassed.
You can love him or hate him, but either way Michael Jordan may not just be the greatest basketball player ever, when you add up the stats, the accolades, the cultural and social impact - he may just be the greatest sportsperson ever too.
Jordan is the GOAT. Get over it Kobe and LeBron fans!
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Dude,
if Lebron had Pippen and Rodman, he would have never lost a finals and it wouldn't even be close.
Kobe had Shaq and the refs against Boston in that game 7.
Jordan was amazing, but Lebron has done more with less talant around him. -
lj? lol you mean lbj
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why do you use the same br/ali phrase like in last dance?
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Give me a break, she finished 26th in the trials. 26th!
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Portland beatnik wrote:
Dude,
if Lebron had Pippen and Rodman, he would have never lost a finals and it wouldn't even be close.
Kobe had Shaq and the refs against Boston in that game 7.
Jordan was amazing, but Lebron has done more with less talant around him.
This game 7 where the Lakers got to shoot 21 free throws in the 4th quarter to come from behind? I can still hear those whistles being blown as a Laker player was going up for a shot!!
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201006170LAL.html -
the ultimate team player wrote:
HoopsFan wrote:
Over the course of LeBron’s career, you can’t really say the same, even over his best 10 year span. Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Kobe, Westbrook, and Harden have all been legitimately better in the years they won their MVPs. LeBron has always been top 3, but not the best player in the league every year.
If you didn’t grow up watching Jordan, it’s hard to really explain how transcendent he was, how large a gulf there was between him and everyone else. For ten years.
That's laughable to say those guys are better than Lebron. You missed Derek Rose who had to be the worst MVP pick ever in the history of the NBA. The Heat crushed them 4-1 that year in the playoffs. Remember, that was the year the idiot coach (and gm) used Lebron as a "decoy" in the playoffs which meant Mario Chambers dribbled the ball around until he turned it over or he passed to Lebron who was standing 30 feet from the bucket (being a decoy) with 4 seconds on the shot clock expecting Lebron to do something with the ball.
If Lebron rightly got the MVP that year, it would have been 5 STRAIGHT YEARS! After that, they just got tired of giving it to LeBron every year and just gave it to whoever could jack up the most shots and score the most points even though no other MVP won a title except Steph Curry who was worthy of his MVP.
I would even go so far as to say Lebron should have won the MVP in 08 over Kobe Klanker as it was already obvious he was much better at that point. 30 points, 7.9 rebounds, and 7.2 assists in the regular season. That was the year they lost to Boston (Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo in the semifinals 4-3. Lebron had 35, 32, and 45 the last 3 games which was 44% of the teams total points. Those were some of the most brutal games to watch with both teams not even getting to 80 points multiple games. It was worse than watching the last possession of a ymca game when both teams knew there were 3 teams waiting and the loser wouldn't get to play anymore that day.
Derrick rose led his team to #1 seed and was on Pace for 70 wins. Not wearing Bron didn't serve it but derrick rose deserved it equally as much if not more. Worse team with a better record. Also playoffs have no bearing on mvp status. -
Portland beatnik wrote:
Dude,
if Lebron had Pippen and Rodman, he would have never lost a finals and it wouldn't even be close.
Kobe had Shaq and the refs against Boston in that game 7.
Jordan was amazing, but Lebron has done more with less talant around him.
It's statements like this that make me laugh. So are you contending Bosh, Wade, Ray Allen are a collection of sh$t talent? Ray Allen is a hall of famer and both Wade and Bosh are going to be. Just because they haven't become eligible yet doesn't mean they don't count. Will you change you stance when these guys get in? Stupid point.
The big gold star on the resume for Lebron is beating the 73 win Warriors with a below caliber championship team coming back from 1-3. Yes it's an epic and career defining achievement but let's put this in perspective. The Cavaliers played in a laughably inferior Eastern Conference for all of Lebrons second stanza there. I mean come on. The path to the finals for him was considerably easier than the Warriors faced even after winning 73 games that irrespective of greatness, takes a lot of effort - especially in the annually loaded Western Conference. By comparison the Cavs didn't even have to win 60 games to win the East (57-25) that season .The Warriors had to beat the Rockets, Blazers and Thunder to make the finals vs the Pistons, Hawks and Raptors (no Kawhi yet) for the Cavs. Once you are in the finals anything can happen. It's only 7 games and a combination of Lebron, Kyrie and Kevin Love playing at basically their career peaks as well as role players lifting above their weight for 4 games is more than enough talent to win a 7 game series vs most teams in NBA history, especially if that other team slightly falters (as the Warriors did).
It's an easy argument to make that Lebron had inferior talent to Jordan but in the career defining moment for James he didn't. He had all-star quality players beside him. (11 all-star and 2 NBA all-team season between Love and Irving). Are those guys better than Pippen and Rodamn? I'm not saying that - but what I am saying is that when those guys play at their highest level they could beat a lot of great teams that play slightly below their potential and they did just that in 2015-16.
You claim that if Lebron had Pippen and Rodman he would have never lost a finals. On what basis? How do you know what becomes of Pippen and Rodman without Jordan. This is always a point that I never understand. Both Pippen and Rodman were clearly elite NBA talent but we have no idea how their careers look without Jordan. Players with elite talent have flooded the league for decades - no less talented than Pip or worm, but became nothing. People say Jordan would not have been so great without Pippen - I mean does Pippen become anything without Jordan? We can never know this. Can we say without any doubt that if Reggie Williams (drafted one spot ahead of Pippen) went to the Bulls and was taken into the system with the leadership of Jordan that he doesn't become one of the top 25 greatest NBA players ever like Pippen? We simply can't say this. All I know is that being around Jordan made the careers of guys like Harper, Kerr, Paxson, Grant, Armstrong, Longely and of course Dennis Rodman who is the best example of the Jordan effect. Basically an outcast unwanted by Popovich in SA, Jordan is credited with being the only guy that had the personality to corral a personality like Rodman - if you doubt this, go read the Tim Keown article on ESPN about him following Rodman as he helped author "Bad as I wanna be" back in the mid 90's. Point being Jordan had effects on players that are simply immeasurable and it's a disgrace and an injustice to simple credit his success to the ability of players he in the end helped create.
Nobody, NOBODY did more for the NBA than Jordan - either for the players around him that he made believe in greatness and hold to a standard of greatness that they lived up to, or for the league as whole in propelling it to be arguably the popular sporting league on the planet during the 90's.
Dude, when you get to the point where the consensus of basketball journalists, analysts, fans, ex-players, ex-players in the HOF who get occasionally themselves mentioned in the conversation for greatest ever, say it's Jordan - they can't all be wrong. Go and fact check me on this. Bird, Baylor, Jerry West, Barkley, Ewing, Olajuwon, Pippen (who knows Jordan is the greatest and has said so, he just has moments of insecurity where he flip-flops to make himself appear more valuable than we all know he was) - even players now in journalistic roles - Shaq, Charles, Kenny, Jalen Rose, McGrady, Pierce, Chauncey Billups - I mean brother, stop with your Lebron James nonsense right now. Seriously.
I'll repeat, it's Jordan and f$$$ing daylight to second, whoever that is (it's not even Lebron). -
I actually agree that Lebron was better than Rose that year, which is why I left him off of the list.
Getting back to Michael, though. His stats were just part of the story. His athleticism was not from this world, and he did things no one did before him, and no one has done since. Even in this era when there are athletes close to his size, jumping ability, quickness, and agility, no one could apply it on the basketball court like he could.
Wilbon posted this play as his fav all-time for Jordan. I had forgotten about it, but it is magnificent. He beats FOUR players on the Knicks, including three guys who all made an NBA all-defensive team at some point in their careers. And this was in the playoffs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXrdy37zSV8 -
HoopsFan wrote:
I actually agree that Lebron was better than Rose that year, which is why I left him off of the list.
Getting back to Michael, though. His stats were just part of the story. His athleticism was not from this world, and he did things no one did before him, and no one has done since. Even in this era when there are athletes close to his size, jumping ability, quickness, and agility, no one could apply it on the basketball court like he could.
Wilbon posted this play as his fav all-time for Jordan. I had forgotten about it, but it is magnificent. He beats FOUR players on the Knicks, including three guys who all made an NBA all-defensive team at some point in their careers. And this was in the playoffs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXrdy37zSV8
You had to bring this video up? As if we NYers havent been suffering enough? -
What's funny about this thread is how many people are outright dismissing Kobe. If this was 5 years ago no one would be arguing this which is exactly why someone that has not been retired for a number of years is ineligible for GOAT consideration. Larry Bird is my favorite player ever but I still consider Jordan to be the GOAT. LeBron will fade away just as easily as Kobe did. Jordan played in the most competitive era in a time that the league was close to being as physically grueling as it ever had been. There is no debate here. Now if you want to argue over Russ and Chamberlain then maybe you have something as Jordan sits right in the middle having statistical dominance and championships with one on either side of the spectrum.
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I disagree with this. In think Lebron is a worthy GOAT candidate, moreso than Kobe.
The thing about Kobe was that he modeled his game after Michael, and many put his drive to succeed close to MJ’s. The NBA media and fanbase was looking for Jordan’s successor, and he seemed like a ready-made answer. Ultimately, his achievements and overall impact don’t quite stack up. While Lebron was the best player in the league for about six or seven straight years, Kobe only had that title for maybe a couple, and only won one MVP. During his career, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, and Lebron all overshadowed him. He was also the only one of the three to win Championships with another MVP. -
Yes, the answer is MJ. I doubt that answer will change for a very long time, if ever. The reason is because the ‘G’ in ‘GOAT’ implies more than just skill or wins or stats (all of which Jordan obviously has plenty of too). True greatness requires immense impact. None of the other names listed here had anywhere near the impact or legacy of Jordan. And beyond that, he was a stone-cold winner who could do it almost single-handedly out of sheer will.
There’s a subtle but important difference between ‘best’ and ‘greatest’. Lebron or Wilt could be the best basketball player, but MJ was the greatest one.
GOAT, and it’s not even close. -
Hello all,
In light of the movie release, many began to discussion who is the GOAT?
I created a small site to end the debate.
thegoatis.com
Enjoy
