Why don't runners have ANY CONCEPT of drafting?

Yeah, I see it all the time and admit that I need to do it more. Last race, though, a 5k on a windy day. I was running alone into the headwind...I thought this is awful. I knew there was someone about 10 yards behind me. I slowed down wondering if he'd pass me or just stay behind. He passed me and I tucked right behind him until the next turn 3/4 of a mile ahead. Made a world of difference.

If you're a cyclist, you've no doubt seen the charts that make plain why it's so important to draft at 20+ mph, yet insignificant at 10mph. A 19 minute 5k runner is going 10mph. It might mean something going into a stiff headwind.

Bad Wigins wrote:

If you're a cyclist, you've no doubt seen the charts that make plain why it's so important to draft at 20+ mph, yet insignificant at 10mph. A 19 minute 5k runner is going 10mph. It might mean something going into a stiff headwind.

Totally agree. Gusts at the Oly Trials a few days ago were over 20 mph. That is a net 30+ mph air resistance for the runners when the wind picked up. That's a big deal.

If it's windy I try to latch on to the biggest person that's going slightly faster than I

am, or tuck into a tight group. Makes a big difference !

Sorta along the same line is people that don't run ANYWHERE near the

shortest line.

Ok now we found someone who seriously lacks reading comprehension.

I wrote the pace of the cyclist is 2-3 times as fast, so if the best trials runners ran 12 mph, an elite cyclist would be 24-36 mph, maybe the 36 mph would be a bit high but that's not relevant. You have to understand that not the pace of the cyclist is up to 9 times as much, but the wind resistance (due to squared relation between pace and wind resistance). Now that is the reason why drafting is effective for cyclists even in calm air, whereas it does only matter for a runner at very windy conditions.

i'll admit to twisting your post to make the point but it stands- Cyclists get a huge draft at 20-25mph. The Trials athletes were navigating through air at upwards of 30mph, when accounting for BOTH their groundspeed and windspeed. Homeslice, drafting matters, period. Believe it or not, it even matters at 12mph, though to a much lower (though still not insignificant) degree.

I once beat a 28high kenyan this way, via sitting on him for almost 80% of a race- a race that I had zero business even being in the same zip code as him. Had I not have drafted, I'd have been at least a minute slower (1/2 marathon).

I agree with OP....

BUT the reason that drafting is critical in cycling and less important in running is primarily due to the forces that you are overcoming in each sport. On a flat road, the VAST majority of a cyclist's output is spent overcoming wind resistance (drag, which is primarily a function of frontal area). Rolling resistance and drivetrain loss are the other factors and they are extremely small forces when compared to wind resistance.

In running, the major force that you are overcoming is gravity and drag is a very small component of total resistance.

SO, while wind resistance matters, its importance is far less impactful than in a sport like cycling. As others have said, hitting apexes on a course might be a greater factor than drag.

[/quote]

Ok now we found someone who seriously lacks reading comprehension.

I wrote the pace of the cyclist is 2-3 times as fast, so if the best trials runners ran 12 mph, an elite cyclist would be 24-36 mph, maybe the 36 mph would be a bit high but that's not relevant. You have to understand that not the pace of the cyclist is up to 9 times as much, but the wind resistance (due to squared relation between pace and wind resistance). Now that is the reason why drafting is effective for cyclists even in calm air, whereas it does only matter for a runner at very windy conditions.[/quote]

If it only matters for a runner in very windy conditions, why was drafting such a feature of Kipchoge's sub 2? This race was carried out in optimal weather conditions, yet he was surrounded by drafters.

Alfie wrote:

Ok now we found someone who seriously lacks reading comprehension.

I wrote the pace of the cyclist is 2-3 times as fast, so if the best trials runners ran 12 mph, an elite cyclist would be 24-36 mph, maybe the 36 mph would be a bit high but that's not relevant. You have to understand that not the pace of the cyclist is up to 9 times as much, but the wind resistance (due to squared relation between pace and wind resistance). Now that is the reason why drafting is effective for cyclists even in calm air, whereas it does only matter for a runner at very windy conditions.[/quote]

If it only matters for a runner in very windy conditions, why was drafting such a feature of Kipchoge's sub 2? This race was carried out in optimal weather conditions, yet he was surrounded by drafters.[/quote]

I was thinking this, too, but I didn't want to make the original post crazy long. This was obviously carefully planned out and well understood for the sub 2 thing. As an elite, I'm surprised they don't get a couple partners to draft off for the first half of a marathon and then those folks just drop out. It could really save some energy for the lead person. It would be like a rabbit on the track, but purely for energy conservation.

semi_pro wrote:

Alfie wrote:

Ok now we found someone who seriously lacks reading comprehension.

I wrote the pace of the cyclist is 2-3 times as fast, so if the best trials runners ran 12 mph, an elite cyclist would be 24-36 mph, maybe the 36 mph would be a bit high but that's not relevant. You have to understand that not the pace of the cyclist is up to 9 times as much, but the wind resistance (due to squared relation between pace and wind resistance). Now that is the reason why drafting is effective for cyclists even in calm air, whereas it does only matter for a runner at very windy conditions.

If it only matters for a runner in very windy conditions, why was drafting such a feature of Kipchoge's sub 2? This race was carried out in optimal weather conditions, yet he was surrounded by drafters.

[/quote]

oops - this is what I wrote ....

I was thinking this, too, but I didn't want to make the original post crazy long. This was obviously carefully planned out and well understood for the sub 2 thing. As an elite, I'm surprised they don't get a couple partners to draft off for the first half of a marathon and then those folks just drop out. It could really save some energy for the lead person. It would be like a rabbit on the track, but purely for energy conservation.[/quote]

the above is true of course, and data driven as the swoosh spend thousands figuring out the best formation for EK to draft within.

to Corona's point, he actually gets it as wrong as partridge. Think about the frontal section of a cyclist, with their aero bike, aero wheels, aero helment... and aero positioning on the bike.

Now think about a human (runner) standing up straight, making zero attempt to be aerodynamic whatsoever. Which one presents greater surface area to the wind? Maybe this helps people understand why it can actually be *more* important for a runner on a windy day to draft, vs the cyclist on a calm day.

semi_pro wrote:

I ran a half marathon two years back and the first five miles were straight into a really stiff headwind. About a mile in, there were 6 of us scattered around the road at about the same 1:15 -1:17 pace. So, we weren't pros, but competitive enough that all of us MUST have been fairly experienced runners. I called out "Hey! This head wind is really strong. Let's work together a bit." and everyone just looked at me totally blankly. I don't think it was that they didn't want to work together, but they seemed to have no idea what I was even trying to organize.

You must not have learned much from cycling. You were doing all the work, why would they want to help? :)

Drafting does make a big difference into a headwind. Even if it's only a 10mph headwind you're running 12mph so that's 22mph -- any cyclist knows that's fast enough for drafting to matter a little.

You're the partridge.

Of course a runner has a greater frontal area. Thats not the point.

If you looked at a pie chart of resistance for cyclists vs runners wind would be almost the entirety of the pie chart for a cyclist. That segment would be a very small portion of the pie chart for a runner.

its all about percentage of overall resistance.

CoronaMan wrote:

If you looked at a pie chart of resistance for cyclists vs runners wind would be almost the entirety of the pie chart for a cyclist. That segment would be a very small portion of the pie chart for a runner.

its all about percentage of overall resistance.

I think the pie chart is bigger for a runner than you (and most people) appreciate. That is why this thread is blowing up. Most people just don't think drafting as a runner is a big deal, but a few of us get it. And it can be a really big impact. Especially if you are talking about 20 seconds over the course of a marathon. That can easily be the difference between drafting and not drafting. EASY.

PR Machine wrote:

CoronaMan wrote:

If you looked at a pie chart of resistance for cyclists vs runners wind would be almost the entirety of the pie chart for a cyclist. That segment would be a very small portion of the pie chart for a runner.

its all about percentage of overall resistance.

I think the pie chart is bigger for a runner than you (and most people) appreciate. That is why this thread is blowing up. Most people just don't think drafting as a runner is a big deal, but a few of us get it. And it can be a really big impact. Especially if you are talking about 20 seconds over the course of a marathon. That can easily be the difference between drafting and not drafting. EASY.

First of all this thread isn't blowing up.

Second wind resistance doesn't make 20 seconds difference in a marathon unless your running into a hurricane.

dont be dumb wrote:

First of all this thread isn't blowing up.

Second wind resistance doesn't make 20 seconds difference in a marathon unless your running into a hurricane.

"you're" not "your" ^

Don't be dumb.

At a local road race, I would probably just run for training and want an honest gauge of my fitness and training in the race, not an Ineos sub-2 asterisk time.

I like watching cycling for that strategic effect.

In serious races, I draft as generously as Cancellara in this video. Not letting anyone latch on.

Whenever someone drafts behind me for more than two miles I start farting a lot. There was one when it wasn’t a fart....

dont be dumb wrote:

PR Machine wrote:

I think the pie chart is bigger for a runner than you (and most people) appreciate. That is why this thread is blowing up. Most people just don't think drafting as a runner is a big deal, but a few of us get it. And it can be a really big impact. Especially if you are talking about 20 seconds over the course of a marathon. That can easily be the difference between drafting and not drafting. EASY.

First of all this thread isn't blowing up.

Second wind resistance doesn't make 20 seconds difference in a marathon unless your running into a hurricane.

I've been in a race where wind resistance probably made more than 20 seconds difference per mile in the windy sections. The first 10K that I ever won was on a point to point course into a major headwind that varied as we got more or less exposed as the road twisted in and out of valleys (imagine a canyon road). There were 2-4 of us in the lead group, and it was really obvious to me as someone that came from cycling that drafting made a huge difference, equivalent to a bike race at about 25+ mph when we were directly exposed to the wind. I was the only guy to draft. The other guys fell behind until it was two of us. Then I won the sprint to the line.

There were windy days when I was a cyclist, where I'd make a turn into a headwind, and suddenly drop from doing 20+ mph no-wind effort to go only 11-12 mph at the same effort. So the wind basically dropped a cyclist to running speeds. A runner in the same wind would obviously slow a lot too.