Nico Young Tempo workout

Cool dude

Jgt11 wrote:

Apparently not every workout Newberry Park does is a killer. Today on a live-stream, Nico Young did a 4 mile tempo on the track in 19:59. Using Daniels and Tinman's calculator and Nico's 3k time, that's 4 miles at about marathon pace.

His coach has a great program - lots of easy/moderate workouts, that are totally doable for Nico, but then also some "killer" sessions to peak him at the right time and make sure his anaerobic capacity is maxed out for important races.

Naming it "MP" is stretching a bit too far tho, he is not training for a marathon and you simply can't use his 3k/3200m performances and extrapolate them to a marathon - he doesn't have the aerobic conditioning and big workouts/long runs yet that are necessary to race a marathon to his VO2MAX potential.

Call the workout "4 miles at Tinman Tempo" and it's totally accurate.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Call the workout "4 miles at Tinman Tempo" and it's totally accurate.

Is this Tinmam the inventor of tempo runs?

Daniels calls it Marathon pace, so I just went with that. Tinman tempo, would be a bit slower(5:09-5:03) compared to the range that Nico's coach said (5:03-4:59). Also I think Tinman would advocate a longer tempo.

Jgt11 wrote:

Daniels calls it Marathon pace, so I just went with that. Tinman tempo, would be a bit slower(5:09-5:03) compared to the range that Nico's coach said (5:03-4:59). Also I think Tinman would advocate a longer tempo.

5:00 pace is a 2:11:15 marathon. Sorry, but I don't think we can call this pace "marathon pace" for HS kid Nico Young. Might have as well entered him in the trials if he could actually run that.

To the guy who sarcastically asked if Tinman invented tempo runs - tempo runs were originally defined as 20-30 min runs on the 1 hour pace (lactate threshold) - Daniels was one of the biggest proponents of calling tempos like that.

However, Tinman found out that this pace is very aggressive for a tempo (and fits much better in the form of 'cruise intervals'), and saw that many formidable coaches used slower tempos, at roughly MP effort. For example, Lydiard had his runners do a 10-16 mile run over hilly terrain at exactly this pace in base phase. Inspired by this, and realizing how effective this tempo pace is, Tinman defined it as "Tinman Tempo". He certainly didn't invent this pace, or was the first person assigning these slower tempos that optimally work the fat-burning system, but he defined it with a name so all runners across the world can easily understand what a tempo around 5k pace + 1min/mile means.

4 miles or 6400 meters?

runnerfromlittlevillage wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Call the workout "4 miles at Tinman Tempo" and it's totally accurate.

Is this Tinmam the inventor of tempo runs?

Phil, Tinman hasn't invented anything.

Only Tinman fanboys like you call that Tinman Tempo.

Canova, for example, is very precise with Pace percentage. No need to call a certain pace Canova Tempo.

But I guess we all know how big Tinman's ego is...

lololololol wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Only Tinman fanboys like you call that Tinman Tempo.

Canova, for example, is very precise with Pace percentage. No need to call a certain pace Canova Tempo.

But I guess we all know how big Tinman's ego is...

But that's exactly how Tinman defined his tempo pace - by pace %. Have you read Jack Daniel's book? It was considered to be the standard for science in training.

Daniels defined tempos at 20 min at 1 hour-pace - saying that anything slower is "no-man's land" and there are no benefits running the paces between easy pace AND tempo pace. He said MP runs are okay, but only help to mentally prepare for the marathon - but physiologically, they don't offer more than easy runs because they are not fast enough.

Most people believed that and trained religiously after Daniels. However, science later found out that our bodies don't work the way Daniel's defined it. There ARE benefits at paces between easy and threshold, and they are not just mental but also physiological.

Yes, Canova, Lydiard, lots of other coaches have used paces between threshold and easy for AGES. But a lot of their training programs are rather secretive, whereas Tinman always wanted to help the running community. Here is his post about introducing the term "Tinman Tempo":

"Tinman Tempo Running – A training pace that optimally develops aerobic endurance. It lies at the high end of moderate (effort). I’ve defined it as the pace that typically lies between 80 and 83% of your maximum aerobic pace. This means running at a pace you can hold in an all-out 2.5-3.5 hour race if you are well conditioned. If you have not been running much distance, then such a time frame has little meaning to you. No worries just use Tinman’s rule of thumb for determining tempo pace – add 1 minute per mile to your 3k-pace! To play it safe, add 1 minute per mile to your 5k race-pace.

For several years the running community used Dr. Jack T. Daniels’ “tempo” pace which was

approximately equal to 1-hour race pace. In 2002-2004, I made it known on letsrun.com, a famous running website, that tempos could be run at other paces, and I clearly defined a way to find the other paces.

With no intention to discredit Jack’s method, I offered information about 3 different tempo-running paces I used in my own running and coaching since the 1980s: long, medium, and short tempos.

Further, I shared my method of finding those paces: divide 5k-pace by .87, .90, or .93. Long tempos, I said, could be run 60-80 minutes, medium 40-60 minutes and short 20-40 minutes, depending upon one’s ability and training level.

Right away, many people discussed the idea of having various length and speed tempos. Many

successful runners shared the fact that they had, during their own careers, often run at a moderate to somewhat strong paces for several miles. Indeed, if one looked back to the late-great runners who set records from decades gone by, one could find several examples of runners who were running in socalled “no-man’s” land and reaping benefits, none-the-less. They ran at or close to marathon pace or slightly slower because it produced results – and they didn’t even have a fancy term for it like “tempo run.”"

"I've noticed a lot of good coaches use this pace...Dibs! It's a tinman tempo now! I called it! Tinman tempo! Invented!"

20 mile race pace. spring loaded banked track 7:56.97 = 8:02+ flat.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Yes, Canova, Lydiard, lots of other coaches have used paces between threshold and easy for AGES. But a lot of their training programs are rather secretive

Search “canova training” or “Kenyan training” or “Lydiard training” or “japanese training” on this website and tell me again how secretive these training programs are.

Do it and you’ll see how real professionals train, the ones who win medals.

High schoolers don’t have the endurance extension of 20+ers. So that’s likely around his half pace. Which for a 20 minute tempo at his level is spot on.

But why not run the tempo on a better surface and a course that doesn’t involve constant turning. We have this thing called gps watches now that make 4 miles tempo on a smooth path very enjoyable.

Jgt11 wrote:

Apparently not every workout Newberry Park does is a killer. Today on a live-stream, Nico Young did a 4 mile tempo on the track in 19:59. Using Daniels and Tinman's calculator and Nico's 3k time, that's 4 miles at about marathon pace.

How fast were his intervals after his 4-mile warm-up?

my 3 cents wrote:

High schoolers don’t have the endurance extension of 20+ers. So that’s likely around his half pace. Which for a 20 minute tempo at his level is spot on.

But why not run the tempo on a better surface and a course that doesn’t involve constant turning. We have this thing called gps watches now that make 4 miles tempo on a smooth path very enjoyable.

the coach said they switch the surfaces all the time, but every once and a while they do them on the track due to schedule.

runnerfromlittlevillage wrote:

Is this Tinmam the inventor of tempo runs?

Yes, he also invented 1k Critical Velocity reps at 10k pace and big workouts for the marathon.

4 strides on turf then a 2 mile cooldown. Crazy hard intervals

I would disagree, as you yourself acknowledge that Nico could not come close to holding the pace for a Marathon and you explained the tinman Tempo is 1 min +3k pace (his 3k pace is not 4min mile pace, so this pace is faster than that Tinman zone). This pace is more closely resembling his HM pace, just slightly slower. It's a less aggressive Daniels tempo run at probably his 75-90-minute race pace. It's a reasonable Daniels tempo, as he isn't trained for the HM and he doesn't need to be attacking 19:30 for 4 miles. He can run it comfortably and gain benefits.

It bears mentioning after a bunch of comments previously that Young's 7:56.97 3k would have been 25th or 26th among NCAA runners this year, ahead of all freshmen. Some of the guys he's ahead of have already run sub-4's for the mile, including a handful of freshmen down to 3:58 (Quax).

This tempo's at a fairly easy pace for him. OK St does a lot of 4M tempos around 19:20s to 20 flat. A 4 flat guy was doing mid 20s for it early season.