June Eastwood runs 4:45 mile

Do we need to go over where babies come from? Because there's only one way that happens, and it requires to different type of people. We have words for that (male/female, man/woman) so, if we want to engage in the second primal instinct, we know who to chat up.

That's it. That's all there is. %.02 percent of the population with ambiguous physical characteristics does not magically create a new way to make more of ourselves. That's what the words mean. Full stop.

If someone wants to grow their hair long, change their name, and take pharmaceuticals to make themselves feel better, then more power to them. But under no uncertain terms is anyone to force the rest of us to lie about it.

Two plus two make four.

Preach

D2

PS: Anyone who can't see June has put on a substantial amount of bodyfat is straight up blind. Based on the IAAF points table June is not performing at quite the same level Jonathan did.

Being fat shamed on letsrun would seem to mean that June is really a female runner.

______________________

I support trans rights, but I don't think transwomen ought to be entitled to all women's spaces, and I don't think policies ought to replace sex as a protected status with gender identity. I also understand why people get upset about internet mobs attacking individuals, but I think people have every right to be angry about and AT June, and every other tranwoman who participates in competitive women's sports. Yes, it's true that she's following the rules. No, the rules aren't fair, and there's plenty of scientific evidence to show that male advantage cannot be undone by medical interventions, particularly if males have gone through puberty.

June was once a competitive man. She KNOWS the difference between male and female performance. The fact that T suppression has changed her body composition and made her slower does not make her a female. Here's a study comparing transwomen and transmen after a year of hormone therapy.

After 12 months, transwomen (males who identify as women) were stronger than transmen (females who identify as male). In other words, males suppressing T (taking estrogen?) remain stronger than females supplementing T. If I'm capable of learning this information, so is June.

This whole thing is misogyny masquerading as progress. Why don't we hear about transmen's rights? They are the ones really getting screwed in sports because they can't compete against women because they're on testosterone (with a few exceptions in high school sports), and T supplemention is unlikely to turn even elite females into elite males (there's a racewalker going to the trials, but that's a rare exception, and it's not surprising that it's happening in a long distance endurance-based sport).

It's one thing to respect somebody's right to inhabit their body or modify their body, but another to think that social and medical interventions turn a male into a female. Women are not males with breast implants and low T. This way of thinking is so incredibly sexist that I can barely stand it. Women have an entirely different reproductive system, along with physiological and morphological characteristics that make their bodies capable of bearing children, and these matter in sports.

Males are colonizing female sports, then proclaiming themselves superior women--but clam down, ladies, the vitriol is out-of-line. Funk Dat!

Well said, tgirl!

tgirl wrote:

D2

PS: Anyone who can't see June has put on a substantial amount of bodyfat is straight up blind. Based on the IAAF points table June is not performing at quite the same level Jonathan did.

Being fat shamed on letsrun would seem to mean that June is really a female runner.

Silly of you to think Letsrun isn't an equal opportunity fat shaming platform.

Crimea RIver wrote:

Concerned Philosopher wrote:

She ran the equivalent of 4:07-4:08 while she was on a men’s team. I think that qualifies as a pretty good runner. I think you are missing. The part where she had to take an entire year off to bring her hormones and correlating physiological factors into line with the women she runs against - according to NCAA rules. Again - she doesn’t even crack the top 50 of NCAA D1 runners. Do your research. smh

Has improved 19 seconds already this season, and it is still early. Another 10-15 seconds and the tenor of the discussion will change markedly.

Her PR was 4:07-4:08 and now she's running 4:45. That's a 37-second slowdown. Try to keep these things in perspective.

Thank you for this! So much tone policing when women and girls have a right to be upset! I won’t call June or any other male ‘she’ or ‘her’, or call them women or female. He is not, they are not. Their feelings are not more important than all of women’s athletics. They’re free to identify as they wish and compete with other males.

I think the argument that June is "not fast" and therefore this discussion should not be considered is very flawed. Sport is amazing because it provides an opportunity for people to commit long term to a passion and see themselves grow with the end goal of making varisty, competing in college, winning and NCAA title and going to the olympics. Just because June is not a threat for an NCAA title or Oly team spot does not mean her choice to participate does not disadvantage others.

The logic of any good argument should always hold in another framework. What if a 10th place conference finisher undertook an action that artificially caused them to have more muscle density(i.e. HGH) and moved up to a 3rd place finisher. Not really a threat in the big scheme of things but this community would be outraged.

There is a girl who would be the team leader, regional qualifier etc who would grow tremendously if the true spirit of sport were followed. I respect that June is a person and should be treated with kindness. So is the individual who is at a competitive disadvantage for team lead, school records, rankings etc. and they are being harmed by transgender athletes' choice to participate.

As a final note consider the similar situation of Ryan Hill. I believe he was required to take testosterone for a time and felt it would put other athletes at a disadvantage if he competed so he sat the bench for some time. If transgender athletes feel strongly enough about the need to transition then they should be okay that certain avenues like competing in womens sports may not be open to them.

IAAF tables have 3:50.2 1500m as 974 points, and 4:45.83 mile as 1008.

3:47.5 1500m for men is equivalent to 4:45.83 for a woman in mile according to IAAF scoring tables.