let's get going RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to STL babe Return to Index | Report Post
For starters, here are a few questions I have for the posters:
1. Renato, why has Shaheen not competed in any 5,000m races since 2003? He is one of 2 to ever beat El Guerrouj at 5K, the other being Kipchoge, and only Bekele (12:37.25), Gebrselassie (12:39.36), Komen (12:39.74), Kipchoge (12:46.53) and Sihine (12:47.04) have ever run faster than this 12:48.81. And you also mentioned that he refused an appearance fee in the steeple because he wanted to have competition in the 5,000. And there is no event right now with more competition than the 5,000, with Chebii, Kipchoge, Choge, Songkok, El Guerrouj, Wendimu, Bekele, Bekele, Gebremariam, Sihine, and Berhanu. In the steeple, he already has the WR and the world title. Even though Koech came close in that race, and Kemboi has been close in the past, Shaheen is clearly the best and has nothing more to prove in the event. Why won't he try a new event with better competition, that is better recognized than the steeple, and that he has equal talent in running?
2. Antonio, perhaps you have done so before, but can you comment on the preparations of Rui Silva and what he changed last year in order to go from a top athlete to 3rd best in the world on the day, even running his last 400 faster than Lagat and El Guerrouj.
3. Lindsay Dunn, do you know about the training of other British runners? How was it that Brendan Foster managed to do repeat miles in 4:07 and run "only" 7:35 for 3,000 (still an amazing time, but his workouts seem to indicate better)? It seems like his training was way too hard with constant track work. The British school of training seems to share this in common. Tim Hutchings, for instance, trained under Frank Horwill who was notorious for beating the daylights out of his athletes with ridiculous volumes of high intensity work. Below, for example, is a schedule from one of his programs for 5,000m:
"Day 1
Aerobic - run half marathon distance fast
Day 2
Aerobic - 3 x 2 miles at 10km speed with 90 secs recovery
Day 3
Anaerobic - 8 x 400m at 1,500m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 4
Aerobic - 4 x 1 mile at 5km speed (target speed) with 60 secs rest
Day 5
Aerobic - 3 x 1,500m at 3km speed with 3 mins rest
Day 6
REST
Day 7
If no race: anaerobic - 8 x 200m at 800m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 8
Aerobic - run 10km very fast
Day 9
Aerobic - run half marathon fast
Day 10
Aerobic - 7 x 800m at 5km speed with 30 secs rest
Day 11
Aerobic - 4 x 1k at 3km speed with 2:30 rest
Day 12
Start the cycle again
"
I think this program is ridiculous with far too many intervals and hard days. He makes no difference for youngsters and he reasons improperly, assuming that ideal race training is constant volume at speed. Easy running seems anathema to him, much like Owen Anderson's crackpot theories, and I don't know any runner who would train like this.
I heard that Hutchings left him because the training was too tough, if not impossible. Looking at the above schedule, a fast half marathon followed by a 10K session followed by fast 400's, then repeat miles at 5K pace, then 1500m reps at 3K pace (!), all one after the other, Hutchings is right.
4. To the coaches; what is your thought on the Lydiard program and the program that the founder of the site, Weldon Johnson uses under John Kellogg.
His recent article is here, discussing progression running:
http://www.letsrun.com/2005/jkfitness.php
He has also written these other two on VO2 max training and high mileage:
http://www.letsrun.com/2004/jkoxygen.php
http://www.letsrun.com/2004/jkvolume.php
let's get going RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to let's get going Return to Index | Report Post
An additional question:
Antonio and Renato, how much involvement have you had with Brad Hudson, and what elements of training did you advise him on? (the only one I know of is Renato's hill sprints, but his idea of sandwhiching the training down seems unlike either of your programs). What do you think of this idea of beginning with high mileage and short sprints, then moving to threshold work and longer reps, finally meeting in the middle at race pace training?
Also, what do you think of the potential of Dathan Ritzenhein? It has been often debated on this board, some saying he can run as fast as 12:55 and break the American record, others criticizing him for running 8:23 in the 2 mile, 13:22 in the 5,000, 27:38 in the 10,000, and 7:43 in the 3,000, saying he will not run much faster.
Michael Bautista RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to let's get going Return to Index | Report Post
1.
Shaheen has run 2 5k's in 2004
13:55.08 1 ECCC-A Moskva 29 May
13:14.65 SB (46) 10 DNG Stockholm 27 Jul
The first was an easy 5k, the second one he fell and was on track for about ten seconds before finishing the race, he's really much faster.
2003
13:48.97 1 ECCC-A Valencia 24 May
12:48.81 PB (1) 1 Gspike Ostrava 12 Jun
13:58.92 2 AsC Manila 23 Sep
Three 5k's that year, easy 5k, Ostrava 5k, then tactical champs 5k late in season.
Shaheen still has more to do in the 3000m steeplechase, he doesn't need to move up but he might run the 5k as well. He wants to go sub 7:50 I'm sure. I'd like to see him enter the Helsinki 5k, but also the 3k sc.
2. Rui Silva ran perfect on the day, the race was perfect for him and El G. He was 5th in 2003 champs before, but I'd like to know his training. There was a thread on his training, if u search.
---
Great stuff! I'm looking forward to Renato posting Shaheen's training after the season is done.
Renato, who do train currently for train besides Shaheen and the Ugandan women in 3k sc? Do you train Dajeme Najim Bashir in 1500 and Bilal in 3k sc? What other people do you train right now?
*
- Dedicated To Hicham El Guerrouj
Ogden RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Michael Bautista Return to Index | Report Post
Renato, who do you pick for the world champions?
Can I ask also how do you address problems in your athletes? You mentioned a while ago that you would note certain problems encountered in training while preparing the World X-C championships and how you corrected these things. What do you do for athletes who lack basic speed or who are coming back from injury or who run too fast on easy days or who have not improved in a long time?
How do you address these issues?
Thanks for your reply.
aouitasback RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to HAHAHAHAHAH Return to Index | Report Post
1)Shaheen ran a 5k in 04(13:14 after falling)
2)Rui Silva already ran 3:30 4-5 years ago, just didn't perform at his best at major champs because of various reasons
3)Running 3xmile@3k-pace is nothing special so 7:35 isnt weak compared to his workouts
4)Tim Hutchings didn't follow Horwill, Hutchings training was based on 2 very hard track sessions + one long run.
dunes runner RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to well Return to Index | Report Post
________________________________
well wrote:
Renato:
You wrote on an earlier page that you discourage someone with a slower PR--say 17 minutes for 5,000--running a lot of mileage. But how else can someone become fast except by increasing training?
________________________________
Run more at race pace.
Tinman RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to aouitasback Return to Index | Report Post
aouitasback:
You are right. Tim Hutchings did not strictly follow Horwill's advice. He has been quoted as saying that he would not have survived has he done all of Horwill's workouts. Some British posters shared that. I knew it to because twice I saw his training schedule listed in the 1980s. One time it was his xcountry training. He was running 90 miles per week and doing session of 6 x 1000m at 2:36 per rep and one session of 600m hill repeats. This was prior to his silver medal at the World XCountry Championships. The second time it showed 86 miles for the week and he had done 4 x 1 mile and a session of 600s and 300s. That was it. The rest were 10-12 mile runs at a modest pace.
Brendan did 3 x 1 mile in 4:10 just prior to his 7:35 world record for 3000m.
do it do it RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Tinman Return to Index | Report Post
Horwill is something of a nut.
In one of his articles he gave a ridiculous hypothetical using the example of the gazelle boy feral dude they found running on all fours at 30 mph out in the wilderness:
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/advice/coach/fh27.php
Basically he says start at 16 x 100m at 14 seconds each and keep the pace while increasing to 150's, 200's, 300's, and someday maybe you'll do 1 x 1600 in 3:44. Yeah right.
a strange idea RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to do it do it Return to Index | Report Post
I have sort of a theoretical question for any of the coaches on here to answer:
Is there a way to determine one's improvement curve and/or ceiling of performance?
Or, for that matter, does anyone EVER reach their absolute peak? Even Michael Johnson stumbled the 5th step out of the blocks in Atlanta when he ran 19.32, and that's a 200 which has one of the smallest margins of error in terms of absolute improvement. Bekele, for instance, is out there for 26 plus minutes and so has nearly a half an hour of time in which to run a little bit faster. But, since the original question was about improvement and overcoming stagnation, what sort of signs does the coach look for?
Dream Mile RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renatonio Cabralanavo Return to Index | Report Post
Does anyone know if the Dream Mile winner is trained by Renato?
Renato Canova RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to please do so Return to Index | Report Post
Bashir is the former Kenyan David Nyaga. He last year ran 3:36.08 / 7:44 and 7:49 9always winning) in 3000 / 8:23 in steeple in Luzern, winning the race, but the official results bring him to 3rd place with 8:32 due to a mistake of computer. He was in training with me from the last 2 years, and this year he spent all his winter in Iten. He already wanted to go to Qatar, but it was no more possible because the Emir, after hearing our proposal, tired to read that Qatar was a thief of athletes (don't do confusion with Bahrain, every thing in Qatar happened with the agreement of AK), decided to stop every change of citizenship. So, I trained Nyaga for becoming one of the top Kenyans. However, in March he had yet an opportunity thru a Qatari team. He went to Doha on 10th of April, and had a test running 1200m and 300m with an interval of 3 minutes, ALONE, with times of 2:47.8 / 36.1. So, the President of one oif the 11 teams that there are in Qatar attached him, and, because he is a member of the Royal Family, he changed in short time his citizenship. This didn't happen thru Qatar Federation.
With the new name of Bashir, Nyaga went to Gulf Championships, and won in 3:37.37 beating Ramzi (3:37.41) with the last 300m in 36.8.
After this, because we have an organization in middle distance where I'm the responsible from 3000 to Marathon, and I personally pushed for having Luiz de Oliveira in the team like responsible for 800/1500m, I gave the athlete to Luiz, that is now his coach. Our program are different, not so much technically, but under the point of view of the organization. For example, I spent my June and July essentially in Kenya (but it was a mistake, because July is terrible, always raining and it's very diffgicult to train well because of the mud), and Luiz essentially in St. Moritz, like I always did in the past.
Afdter this, Bashir ran 3:31.04 in Doha (2nd), then a poor 800m (1:49) in Hengelo, then another poor 1500 in Paris (3:43). After a short period in Kenya, he came back to St. Moritz, and everything was OK : he won in Madrid 3000m with 7:41, then ran 800m in 1:47.5 in Italy, and finally the Mile in Oslo. This guy can become very strong also in 5000m, but at the moment his main event is 1500 / 3000. He is not very young, already 26y old, but has a lot of talent
ODX RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova Return to Index | Report Post
Renato: Nice that you are back with your great info about the world-class athletes. Interesting about Luiz, didn't know he was coach of the quataris. Looking forward to the worlds, the steeple is always the most spectacular event with Shaheen playing the biggest role.
Mr lactate RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova Return to Index | Report Post
Renato,
How would you train a world class 800/1500m runner during the racing season were there are no races?
How many track sessions, mileage, sprints/strength?
Are you using a lot of 3k-5k pace sessions for milers or is it mostly fast sessions at 8/1500 pace?
Thanks for good information!
Michael Bautista RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova Return to Index | Report Post
Hi Renato! Thanks for your information about this athlete
Please tell me more information about the 800 race in Italy after Madrid, so I can add it to the Tilastopaja.net results section for this athlete
Please tell me date, city, name of the meet, exact time, and his position in the race
Also, will Shaheen run 3k sc and 5000 in Helsinki? By the way I will send you emails about my program after Helsinki, when you are less busy :D
- Dedicated To Hicham El Guerrouj
Skuj RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Michael Bautista Return to Index | Report Post
Thank you Renato. Fascinating stuff.
I'm surprised and happy to see the Great Brazilian Coach keeping busy.
no no no RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Renato Canova Return to Index | Report Post
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Renato Canova wrote:
Bashir is the former Kenyan David Nyaga. He last year ran 3:36.08 / 7:44 and 7:49 9always winning) in 3000 / 8:23 in steeple in Luzern, winning the race, but the official results bring him to 3rd place with 8:32 due to a mistake of computer. He was in training with me from the last 2 years, and this year he spent all his winter in Iten. He already wanted to go to Qatar, but it was no more possible because the Emir, after hearing our proposal, tired to read that Qatar was a thief of athletes (don't do confusion with Bahrain, every thing in Qatar happened with the agreement of AK), decided to stop every change of citizenship. So, I trained Nyaga for becoming one of the top Kenyans. However, in March he had yet an opportunity thru a Qatari team. He went to Doha on 10th of April, and had a test running 1200m and 300m with an interval of 3 minutes, ALONE, with times of 2:47.8 / 36.1. So, the President of one oif the 11 teams that there are in Qatar attached him, and, because he is a member of the Royal Family, he changed in short time his citizenship. This didn't happen thru Qatar Federation.
With the new name of Bashir, Nyaga went to Gulf Championships, and won in 3:37.37 beating Ramzi (3:37.41) with the last 300m in 36.8.
After this, because we have an organization in middle distance where I'm the responsible from 3000 to Marathon, and I personally pushed for having Luiz de Oliveira in the team like responsible for 800/1500m, I gave the athlete to Luiz, that is now his coach. Our program are different, not so much technically, but under the point of view of the organization. For example, I spent my June and July essentially in Kenya (but it was a mistake, because July is terrible, always raining and it's very diffgicult to train well because of the mud), and Luiz essentially in St. Moritz, like I always did in the past.
Afdter this, Bashir ran 3:31.04 in Doha (2nd), then a poor 800m (1:49) in Hengelo, then another poor 1500 in Paris (3:43). After a short period in Kenya, he came back to St. Moritz, and everything was OK : he won in Madrid 3000m with 7:41, then ran 800m in 1:47.5 in Italy, and finally the Mile in Oslo. This guy can become very strong also in 5000m, but at the moment his main event is 1500 / 3000. He is not very young, already 26y old, but has a lot of talent.
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Renato thanks for the info but these times are out of this world.
He runs 3:36, 1:47 for 800, 8:23 for the steeple. All reasonable times.
He has a bad race with 3:43 (I'd love to run "badly" and run 3:43).
3:31, 1:49. Again, great times. But none of those point to a 3:47 mile.
And he ran the last 300 of a 1500 in THIRTY SIX SECONDS?!?!
How does someone with 800 times of 1:47 and 1:49, plus one 1500 race in 3:43, run a 3:47 mile? That bad 1500 race was almost the same time of his mile! He improved nearly 100m in that time span.
I admit I've never heard of him before but 3:36 1500 to a 3:47 mile is ridiculous improvement. That's up there with Cram, Komen, Niyongabo, Rotich, Kibowen, Morceli, El Guerrouj, and Ngeny. And this from a relatively unknown Kenyan.
no no no to you buddy RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to no no no Return to Index | Report Post
You misread Mr. Canova's post. It reads:
"had a test running 1200m and 300m with an interval of 3 minutes, ALONE, with times of 2:47.8 / 36.1."
Hence, he ran a 1200, took a 3 minute rest, and THEN ran a 36.1 300
no no no RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to no no no to you buddy Return to Index | Report Post
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no no no to you buddy wrote:
You misread Mr. Canova's post. It reads:
"had a test running 1200m and 300m with an interval of 3 minutes, ALONE, with times of 2:47.8 / 36.1."
Hence, he ran a 1200, took a 3 minute rest, and THEN ran a 36.1 300
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No, YOU misread Canova's post AND my post
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With the new name of Bashir, Nyaga went to Gulf Championships, and won in 3:37.37 beating Ramzi (3:37.41) with the last 300m in 36.8.
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Think before speaking.
agreed RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Mr lactate Return to Index | Report Post
Renato, I enjoyed reading the article about your predictions for the World Championships and have some questions:
1. Bekele, as great as he is, will have a challenge in the 10,000m. His teammate Sileshi Sihine ran 26:57 this year as was very upset. He can eventually challenge for the WR. He has the #4 time ever in the 5,000 with 12:47 and may be the most underrated runner out there today.
He outkicked Gebrselassie last year in 26:39 and ran the last 100 meters in 12 seconds in that race. He has a great kick and the margin of victory for Bekele last year in Athens was large (4 seconds) only because when Sihine saw he would not catch him he eased off at the end.
I think if Sihine comes in PR shape (he ran 26:57 2 months ago and has good training since) he can win with the right tactics. He is as aerobically strong as Bekele is; the only question is if he can remain with him in the last 200m.
Watching him and Bekele racing, Sihine has a much easier looking stride. His leg does not kick up as high and he has a long stride merely based on the strength with which he pushed off the ground. Bekele has such a gigantic, fast stride that it is difficult to see where he can open it up. It already looks like he is sprinting throughout most of a 5,000m race.
I agree that he is the favorite but I do not think others can be discounted so quickly. Sihine is there and Dinkessa was very close to him earlier in the year.
2. Where is your runner Nicholas Kemboi? A phenomenal talent, one of the top 5 ever with 26:30 and he nearly beat Gebrselassie 2 years ago. But since then we have heard nothing of him and he is not on the WC team. Will he race again and what has happened to him?
3. I'm not sure why Songkok is the 5K favorite. He has very good speed but will be racing Gebremariam, Bekele, Kipchoge, and Chebii. Craig Mottram has also beaten him. He has a 3:30 1500 but Mottram just ran a 3:48 mile and Songkok is no stronger than any of the others. Bekele ran 12:40 this year and there is no chance Songkok can run that fast right now.
If it is a 13:00 race Bekele will be feeling much stronger (that is far off his PB) compared to Songkok who is still new at 5,000.
Bekele also ran a 200 during his 5K win in Lausanne 2 years ago in 23-point. He has AMAZING finishing speed and can outkick Songkok depending on the pace.
4. I am surprised Ezekiel Kemboi is named as a favorite because he has raced poorly this year. Shaheen will win easily but I hope to see him in the 5K as well. That would be a great double.
Underrated athletes RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to agreed Return to Index | Report Post
Sileshi Sihine is underrated but so are John Kibowen and Laban Rotich. They both ran 3:47 in the Oslo Dream Mile behind El Guerrouj but rarely get credit. Kibowen is 36 and still winning Golden League 5,000's.
Renato, do you have the training of Ngaya used to run 3:47?
5K runner RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to dunes runner Return to Index | Report Post
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well wrote:
Renato:
You wrote on an earlier page that you discourage someone with a slower PR--say 17 minutes for 5,000--running a lot of mileage. But how else can someone become fast except by increasing training?
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dunes runner wrote:
Run more at race pace.
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It's the middle of July. For a HS runner looking to improve, running at race pace right now would be disastrous.
As Lance Armstrong's coach Chris Carmichael said, you need to build the engine first. Speedwork is not a "base." The aerobic fitness alone must chronologically come first and that by itself should make race times faster.
I'm not sure about all that RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to agreed Return to Index | Report Post
I think you overanalyzed things a bit there, and WAY overhyped Sihine. Lets look at the FACTS:
* Sihine was upset when he ran 26:57 because he said he was going to make an attempt at the WR. Yeah, when you say that and miss it by NEARLY 40 seconds, then yeah, you probably SHOULD BE upset.
* Bekele is 30 seconds faster then Sihine this year at 10k and has a PR that is nearly 20 seconds faster than Sihine. And at 5k, Bekele is 10 seconds faster than Sihine. All those comparisons do not bode well for Mr Sihine.
* If Sihine is in such great shape this year, WHY IS HE NOT RUNNING MORE RACES??? What else has he done besides that mediocre (for him) 26:57 ?
* margins of victory in WC's 10k and Olympic 10k that last two years were NOT EVEN CLOSE between Bekele and Sihine. Bekele absolutely ran away from him, like he was standing still.
* Your stride analysis is rather strange. Yes, Bekele does indeed look like he is "sprinting" the whole way already. But somehow that does not seem to hurt him when he needs to churn out a final 52/53 lap. And why would a "long stride" where one does not "kick up as high" translate into having a great kick later in the race?? Sounds like you are describing the stride of an Alan Culpepper or some other tall distance runner with tons of endurance but without lots of natural great speed. IN short, by looking at their strides, my conclusion would be the opposite of yours: maybe at a marathon, Sihine's less powerful, more efficient/grounded stride might win the day over Bekele, but NOT in a kick on a track race.
Sihine is not in Bekele's league yet. Maybe someday.
easy answers RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to I'm not sure about all that Return to Index | Report Post
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I'm not sure about all that wrote:
I think you overanalyzed things a bit there, and WAY overhyped Sihine. Lets look at the FACTS:
* Sihine was upset when he ran 26:57 because he said he was going to make an attempt at the WR. Yeah, when you say that and miss it by NEARLY 40 seconds, then yeah, you probably SHOULD BE upset.
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He ran the 10K in Prague. Have you ever HEARD of Prague being a high class meet? He was the only big name there, the pacemakers screwed it up for him early so he was left out in the cold for a lot longer than he should have been, and I also seem to remember that it was raining.
You toss in a few 66-67 second laps and he will subconsciously ease off knowing he's not going to get the record.
This is a guy who ran his last 500 in 1:10 last year and in 2003 also ran his 2nd 5K in 13:10, again easing off once Gebrselassie and Bekele ran away from him.
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* Bekele is 30 seconds faster then Sihine this year at 10k and has a PR that is nearly 20 seconds faster than Sihine. And at 5k, Bekele is 10 seconds faster than Sihine. All those comparisons do not bode well for Mr Sihine.
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Again, Bekele ran a highly competitive 10K in a great meet, Hengelo, with Dinkessa clipping his heels the whole way.
Sihine ran in a bad meet in the rain with no competition and bad pacemaking. As for Sihine's PB, Dinkessa came from nowhere to run 26:30. So did Renato's runner Kemboi when he ran 26:30. I am certain in good conditions with good competition Sihine would destroy his PB and run close to or under the WR. It seems you didn't see his 26:39. He looked extremely relaxed just following Geb. It was another WR attempt that fell off due to bad pacemaking. MAny pacemakers simply cannot go very long at 63 per lap, so Sihine's best chance at getting the WR is in a race with Bekele, Dinkessa, or Gebremariam. He ran his last 100 in that race in 12 seconds. You're not running at maximal capacity if you can finish that fast.
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* If Sihine is in such great shape this year, WHY IS HE NOT RUNNING MORE RACES??? What else has he done besides that mediocre (for him) 26:57 ?
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Because he's training. He got the evaluation of his fitness he wanted, was disappointed, and has no need of more races because he can return to Ethiopia and get all the testing of his shape he needs following Bekele around the track at 8,000 feet.
Remember, these guys last year did a 7K time trial passing through 5K in 13:22! That's at 8,000 feet. Why would you need a European race to tell you you are in shape when you can do workouts like that. It's the same reason Bekele did not run Oslo and Rome even though he would probably have easily won the Million dollar Jackpot; Kostre wants those guys together making a strong push for Helsinki.
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* margins of victory in WC's 10k and Olympic 10k that last two years were NOT EVEN CLOSE between Bekele and Sihine. Bekele absolutely ran away from him, like he was standing still.
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In 2003 he was not the same runner he is today. In 2003 his 5K PB was 13:06, so running the 26:58 and 27:01 that he did was remarkable for someone with that 5,000 time.
He crushed Bekele at the Ethiopian 5K running 13:35 to his 13:47. That makes him one of 3 athletes ever (Geneti and Chebii the other 2) to beat both Bekele and Gebrselassie.
In Athens, again, watch the race. Bekele took off and immediately opened a gap down the straight. Sihine saw he was not coming back and so ran in strongly but not all-out. Had he really chased Bekele strongly it would have been closer. You underestimate the guy. See what happens at Helsinki if he is healthy and fit.
There are very few athletes in the world who can, off 27 minute pace, take off and run 1:06 for the last 500. Sihine has a year more of training behind him and a better chance to respond to that tactic if Bekele uses it.
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* Your stride analysis is rather strange. Yes, Bekele does indeed look like he is "sprinting" the whole way already. But somehow that does not seem to hurt him when he needs to churn out a final 52/53 lap. And why would a "long stride" where one does not "kick up as high" translate into having a great kick later in the race?? Sounds like you are describing the stride of an Alan Culpepper or some other tall distance runner with tons of endurance but without lots of natural great speed. IN short, by looking at their strides, my conclusion would be the opposite of yours: maybe at a marathon, Sihine's less powerful, more efficient/grounded stride might win the day over Bekele, but NOT in a kick on a track race.
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Because he can keep the same speed as Bekele without using his full range of motion. If Bekele runs at 61 per lap kicking himself in the back, eating up ground, and really using his full range of motion, it seems like he is nearly maxed out. Even if he gets faster there is not much more he can do with that stride. It's about as long and fast as it will get.
Sihine on the other hand has a more clipped, lesser stride that CAN be expanded with more training. He can open it up and get faster. Of course this is hypothetical, but it's merely an observation about potential. in absolute terms (# of seconds) I think Sihine can improve more than Bekele by a ways.
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Sihine is not in Bekele's league yet. Maybe someday.
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He said he's trying to beat him. He has once before and he's the next best these days at 10,000. If anyone can beat him, it's Sihine.
I'm not sure about all that RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to easy answers Return to Index | Report Post
I will not take the time to answer all your counterpoints (there are just too many), but let's leave it at this:
Sihine is great no doubt, but he has YET to prove himself to be in Bekele's league, PERIOD. He can say all he wants, and predict all he wants, and you can make excuses for him all you want, and make analyses all you want, and claim that he ran X time for the final 100 of this race and X time for the final 500 of that race, but until he beats Bekele in a big race, or runs as fast as Bekele, he just ain't there yet. Beating him in one low key race in Ethiopia a few years back is something, but not that much. How many times has Bekele beaten Sihine on the track and in X-C? Dozens?? Probably something close to that.
So.......Bekele will easily outkick him again, and you will say what this time? Sihine "eased off" again and that is why the margin was not close? Or will it be that Sihine was hurt or "not fit" ? Sihine is one of the greatest runners on the planet. But Bekele is the GREATEST EVER (in my book, and in many others). You don't see unseat the Greatest Ever unless you kick his butt a few times and break his records (as Bekele did to Geb). Talk is cheap.
dunes runner RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to 5K runner Return to Index | Report Post
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5K runner wrote:
As Lance Armstrong's coach Chris Carmichael said, you need to build the engine first. Speedwork is not a "base." The aerobic fitness alone must chronologically come first and that by itself should make race times faster.
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Where do you see that I said to do speedwork?
I didn't say anything about speedwork, one way or the other.
Your message is bass-akwards.
First you said to not run more at race pace, than you quote Carmichael saying basically the same thing that I did.