How does running slow lots of miles result in a fast marathon

theclaws wrote:

zzzz wrote:

That's true, but this thread isn't about training for someone's best marathon, it's about how fast you can go with just lots of easy runs and mileage, but no specific marathon training. The OP's friend could obviously go much faster if he had actually trained specifically for a marathon. I probably could have realistically targeted sub-2:30 at 43 if I did specific training.

This is a really interesting question. How close to your potential can you get on high(ish) miles and easy running? 85%? 90+%?

zzzzz, you're thinking with specific workouts you could have dropped your marathon pace from around 6:15 to 5:40? That strikes me as a pretty big ask for workouts. But really, I just don't know.

6:35/6:40 to around 5:45. Did you miss the part where I said my average training pace was 10:00+ before that marathon? Much slower than the OP's friend's 8:30. Heart rate would have been around 100, about 55% of max, sometimes even in the 90s bpm. Just running 8:30 pace in normal training would have brought me down a lot.

5:45/540 is speculation of course, but would have been a reasonable target at that age. Maybe still possible at 50 for me, who knows. I probably won't find out - marathons are not my thing.

Long slow running works, just not as well. I think just about anyone can run at a 7 min/mile pace, the trick is having the endurance to maintain that pace. Running 90mpw at basically any pace will give you that.

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/fulltext/2007/04000/Aerobic_High_Intensity_Intervals_Improve_V_O2max.12.aspx

Moderately trained (55-60mL-kg) runners had VO2max tested before and after 8 weeks of these workouts (3x per week)

1) long slow distance (70% maximal heart rate; HRmax)

+1 VO2max

2)lactate threshold (85% HRmax)

+0.8 VO2max

3) 15/15 interval running (15 s of running at 90-95% HRmax followed by 15 s of active resting at 70% HRmax)

+3.9 VO2max

4) 4 × 4 min of interval running (4 min of running at 90-95% HRmax followed by 3 min of active resting at 70%HRmax)

+4.9 VO2max

Other measures increased proportionally as well (lactate threshold, running economy, etc).

Hdhshshsjjssjsjsjj wrote:

I have a friend who ran 80 to 90 mpw all easy pace (8:30) and then ran a 2:55 marathon. He did literally zero workouts other than long runs (all easy pace) How is this possible?

Only possible on LRC.

5/10 for the fair amount of responses.

Our pal 4Z has shown rank ignorance about lots of slow miles on ultra threads here.

My own theory would be that the ability to cover long distances is already there, so lots of mileage just brings it out. After that, individual talent is more of a factor for speed.

I did see the part about 10:00 pace, but you also said that was on trails. It's definitely not uncommon to have 8 to 8:30 pace on the roads equal 10:00 pace on the trails. But that HR is really low. Seems like you were perhaps getting your marathon time off of mostly strength and very moderate aerobic efforts. Very interesting.

We on LRC don't care about science, more interested in some guy did this and such

Actually did know a guy who ran every mile of a marathon faster than any training mile, but he also almost died (several days in hospital) in other races where he overextended himself, and that’s something people don’t brag about.

You're welcome wrote:

Hdhshshsjjssjsjsjj wrote:

I have a friend who ran 80 to 90 mpw all easy pace (8:30) and then ran a 2:55 marathon. He did literally zero workouts other than long runs (all easy pace) How is this possible?

Only possible on LRC.

5/10 for the fair amount of responses.

Actually, it sounds a lot like Maffetone training as described by a lot of guys interviewed on Floris Gierman's youtube channel:

xlev2 wrote:

We on LRC don't care about science, more interested in some guy did this and such

We on LRC don't care about science, more interested girlfriend picks from some guy did this and such

Clearly on one of his 90 mile weeks, he did a 5x18

I swear if we're talking robbie...

I find it hard to believe someone could run 80-90 mpw and do them all at 8:30, eventually that pace should be feeling ridiculously easy. That's either a LOT of will power, or you friend is doing some runs at faster paces.

2:55 is a good jogger's time.

Amby Burfoot won the Boston Marathon in 1968. He was huge into volume and claims most miles were at 8:00 pace. OK, he does admit to doing some speed work. But still!

Big Red wrote:

Amby Burfoot won the Boston Marathon in 1968. He was huge into volume and claims most miles were at 8:00 pace. OK, he does admit to doing some speed work. But still!

Most of his workouts were races(when he ran the 2:14 at Fukuoka), later on he added some 400s once a week after he didn't race as much post college. HRE has described it in better detail on here else where. Also look up Long Slow Distance: The Humane Way to Train. Or something along those lines. There was Bob Deines (not sure on the spelling of the last name). Who got 4th at the Olympic marathon trials, ran 2:2x. Most of his mileage was slow, in singles. But would usually race once a week.

I don't really get the question. Yes long slow distance and nothing else develops one's 'aerobic house', what's so weird about that. It definitely has some advantages like lower chance of injury, don't getting stressed out about not being able to 'nail' an interval session or anything, just get out of the door and run. Some people are bored by running slow, but for someone who's not that's just perfect. However it takes more time for the same mileage AND more miles for the same improvement. So if a typical guy around 30 trains on a 70 mpw plan to qualify for Boston, your friend is running 10-20 miles more and uses like 3-4 more hours per week (which is a lot) - for essentially the same result. Moreover, at some point LSD won't give any improvements and he would just plateau - and that's not that far off, maybe he's already there.

Running Lots of miles at a slower pace just makes your body more resilient, add to those miles few quality workouts and your performance will sky rocket... you'll be amazed to know how much our bodies can respond to continuous physical stress, we are some pretty amazing biological machines.

In short, the future is epigenetics, how our bodies adapt and deal with external environmental impulses and get stronger.

Check it out, i'll put my money on that type of research to improve our bodies perform and prevent and heal diseases.

So continuous running and it's body effects are surely triggering new gene expressions in our cells... you never really know

where your stress adaptation limit is (lets be honest for normal people like us can so far, but for Eliud Kipchoge and Bekele those are examples of freaks of nature ;) ).

Are you sure your homie is tellin ya da truth about his training?

Cud be that the thug is cashing in some speed workouts and tempo runs and not tellin his bro.

I never tell anyone the truth about my training.