Are the top high school XC programs in Colorado recruiting?

I'm going to bet the communication between parent/coach and parent/AD never happened in any meaningful way. Which means, as usual, the kids handled the situation better than the adults. Secondly, I am going to bet the "new coach" recruited the athlete. Which means the parents and "new coach" circumvented the rules. That's what happens. Generally speaking, the wheels are turning by the "new coach" and parent, before the "old coach" knows there is even a problem. Cheating is cheating when coaches recruit. You don't have to like the rules. Do you ignore laws because you don't agree with them? Probably, but don't complain about the consequences if you get caught. I also want to say something not all parents agree with, but being a parent doesn't necessarily mean you make the right decisions for your kids. It may only seem like a good idea at the time. I have 2 kids and they have had struggles. I didn't encourage them to go school or program shopping.

"Why does your scenario (and others' on this thread) have to include recruiting every time (again with the over-generalizing)?"

Get real. You are going to go through all the trouble (as you've mentioned), and not talk to the coach of the new potential school? Not talk to parents? Not have your kid talk to other kids in the new potential school? As CHSAA defines it, those 3 scenarios are recruiting violations.

masters runner from the CO wrote:

Choice - the beauty of the whole Nuggets thing - ALL of the players you mentioned were FORCED to play for the Nuggets. That is the point of the draft - to create a sense of parity. If there was no draft ( so school of choice/recruiting) how many of those guys would be Nuggets?

Full disclosure - my kid is school of choice - we school of choiced him to the school my wife and I work at.

That's right. The Nuggets are a parallel to a public school coached by someone like CHASSSAAA. They do the best they can with what they have, develop talent and compete at a high level. They are not sitting around complaining about the Lakers recruiting or free agency acquisitions. They build their program and kick butt. Don't complain. Work hard. Train smart. Go compete.

So you're "going to bet" about a hypothetical transfer situation? OK.

Do you think most ADs want to talk to parents who are having problems?

Do you think most coaches want to talk to parents about the problems their kid is having?

So what does this recruiting look like? You just go right to betting they "recruited the athlete." I'm curious if you think coaches are watching other programs, seeing unhappy kids, and then swooping in to recruit them like college coaches.

If the "old coach" doesn't know there's a problem, then...that's probably a problem.

I don't like CHSAA's transfer rules. But I didn't say anything about ignoring the rules. The fact is that despite the transfer penalty, athletes are still transferring. I'm arguing that transferring doesn't equal recruiting by the new program. It might. But it's not a given.

I take your point about parents not always making correct decisions for their children. That's part of parenting—screwing up your kids.

For many families, there's a lot on the line. Mental health is a very real concern for a large percentage of high-school students. Running in college is a goal of many young runners. IF a student-athlete is having difficulties they can't work out, that can seriously affect their ability to run in college. Or it may affect what school they get into.

Did you and/or your 2 kids school or program shop before they started high school? Or did you say I'm going to School A no matter what the academics, athletics, etc. were like? You didn't need a school tour or open house? You didn't talk to parents with kids already at the school?

OK. So families go through all the trouble (as you and I have mentioned) and research, but none of them also do the research on CHSAA's protocol? I don't buy that. Do all of them follow the protocol? I'm sure some don't.

I've read them before, but here's what CHSAA's 1900.2 section states in their bylaws:

Q1: In practical terms, what should a coach do to avoid recruiting violations or accusations of

recruiting (please note: in all cases, "coach" also refers to "school representatives of athletic

interests")?

A1: 1. A coach may not initiate contact with any athlete for the purpose of recruiting,

soliciting or encouraging that student to transfer schools or attend a school outside of

his/her/their area of attendance.

2. If an athlete or parent of an athlete from a different school initiates contact with a

coach asking academic or athletic questions about the school, the coach must

immediately refer the student or parents to a school administrator, the athletic

director or a guidance counselor. Further, as a courtesy, it is strongly recommended

that the school at which the student currently attends be notified of the potential

transfer.

3. These clarifications are not to eliminate unplanned and casual conversations that may

occur between coaches and athletes from different schools, even if athletics are a topic

of conversation. A violation occurs when a coach encourages or suggests that a

student

transfer schools.

That doesn't exactly match up with what you stated. Not at all.

I believe that my kids will be successful wherever they go to high school. My kids are figuring out that sports are a secondary part of their high school experience, not the primary part. I did not program/school shop my kids. Actually, that is the case in the vast majority of high school families.

None do. And, actually they are consistent. Recruiting coaches ALL violate #3 and encourage athletes to transfer. That's why the Niwot coach got into trouble in the past. As mentioned, he was on probation, and it did nothing to stop him from continuing to do so. Contact has been initiated by the head track coach in multiple situations as well, in the school setting.

Chasssaaa wrote:

Actually, that is the case in the vast majority of high school families.

Actually... In one of the districts in question, 7,028 kids chose to enroll in secondary schools "outside their attendance area" in 2020 - that's 28% of total secondary enrollment!

They do it for all sorts of reasons, academics, music, sports, etc. Or maybe all these kids are being recruited? gasp!

Your kids are amazing. You are an amazing parent. Your family's success will be legendary and sung in the halls of gods. Congratulations!

Back in reality town: Did they just walk to closest school with their school supplies on day one of high school?

Most families may end up at their designated local high school, but your logic is fallacious. If they looked at what their local schools offered for academics before their kids showed up, they school shopped. If they went to a XC meet of their local program, they program shopped. They just chose the first/only program they looked at.

They also may have looked at other schools/programs but just decided on their local school for any of a number of reasons.

You might find this interesting, but it may not fit into your worldview:

https://twitter.com/NiwotHS/status/1455203352388771845

I know it's an anonymous message board (turns out Buzzer Beet Ear is not my actual name), but there's a lot of accusations and assumptions thrown around on this thread.

The Niwot coach got into trouble. He continued to do so. Contact has been initiated by the head track coach.

Were you involved? Were you there? Was someone wearing a wire?

Do you know that ADs weren't involved because you were one of the ADs? Otherwise, you don't know that.

Let's open up an adjacent can of worms.

Hypothetical situation regarding offseason.

Billy runs for Team A. Coach of Team B casually invites Billy run with Team B during the offseason.

Ethically, is there a difference to this offer if:

a)Team A has a robust offseason program, meets most every day, coaches are present and actively creating/modifying the work being done, and provides opportunity to runners of a wide array of talent and motivation levels.

b)Team A is given a loose plan to follow at the end of the season. Some team members follow the plan , others don't really run much. The coach occasionally drops in but is not intimately involved.

c)Team A (and coach) disappears until the beginning of the next season.

Good point, not a vast majority. 72%. It's okay if you don't agree with the rules. But I think at the high school level, it's important to follow them. It promotes fairness and sends a better message to young athletes, and the community. That's all. It really isn't any different than any other form of cheating, at any level.

Hahah you are getting anxious. I can see I struck a nerve. You're right, having 46 feeder schools doesn't fit into my worldview. And that's a good thing. Also, thanks, I think I am a good parent also. Whenever the truth hurts people here, they have a similar, sarcastic response like the one you wrote.

Win or lose, I can choose to send the right message to my athletes and my own kids. I encourage them to work hard and continue to strive for success. I don't encourage them to quit at the first sign of adversity or struggle. I also encourage them to communicate their issues, since I can't read their minds.

I am not judging you or anyone else. The coaches that choose that direction (cheating), merely have the best collections of individuals. They are not be the best coaches, as they cheat. You can't really argue that fact, it is well-documented.

daughters private school excelled in several sports, because of this the top athletes in these sports would want to attend there. They dominated and were often accused of recruiting but it was based on success of the programs. Does Colorado have separate divisions for private and public schools?

Also if colleges now have free transfers without loss of eligibility why not the High Schools?

Yes, I'm a simple human who experiences anxiety.

Define "feeder school" in this example. Your use of the term here wouldn't match up with the typical school district definition.

And yes, I was being sarcastic. Can we be sarcastic here, or is this board for just making unfounded accusations? I don't think I know you, but maybe I do. So I don't know what type of parent you are. Based on your statements, you put off a vibe of privilege and sh!t not stinking. A one-size-fits-all parenting style that might work for your kids/might not. You're preparing your kids to be gritty (what a buzz word these days) and ready for anything. Do they tell you everything?

Immediately after you say you're not judging me or anyone else, you precede to call coaches cheaters.

Maybe you needed to choose a better school for yourself.

Chasssaaa wrote:

Good point, not a vast majority. 72%. It's okay if you don't agree with the rules. But I think at the high school level, it's important to follow them. It promotes fairness and sends a better message to young athletes, and the community. That's all. It really isn't any different than any other form of cheating, at any level.

Chasssaaa- You and a few other on here are obviously big fans of rule following. I don't disagree with that stance, even though I disagree with the rule.

Would you, or the others discussing this, in light of the shared concerns/ criticisms or the CHSSA recruiting rules be open to changing rules at all? Is there a way to protect your concerns while still allowing for some athletes to transfer without penalty?

Chasssaaa wrote:

It's okay if you don't agree with the rules. But I think at the high school level, it's important to follow them

Huh?! What rules don't I agree with? I stated a fact on enrollment different from your supposition.

You obviously don't like facts that challenge your narratives and would rather dwell in your world of rumor, innuendo and yet to be seen "well-documented" information. Best of luck to you in that hellscape.

Your right evey situation is different. My point there are rules in place but, unfortunately there are coaches that circumvent these rules or we wouldn't be having this conversation. You asked me if I have turned kids away in order to abide by these rules yes I have. My team I coach would have been a nationally ranked last season if it had'nt been for covid. I had a kid from a small private school ask if he should switch schools as he doesn't really have a team I told him no because it's wrong to recruit and all the negatives of transferring that you listed. I gave him some training advice and that's about it. He probably would have been a great addition to my program as he had already ran 15:05 as a sophomore.

This year I lost my top 5 runners and went up against a school with a club coach who recruits his kids as

thier team consists of several runners who ran 4:37 for the 1600 as 8th graders and ran for his club. My best guy this year ran 5:10 for the 1600 last season in 9th grade. We still beat that school. I get who I get. Competing is more than about winning it's about sportsmanship and having athletes grow as individuals. If we as coaches don't abide by the rules what does that tell our athletes?

I re-read this post - first off, RunningRunner, I appreciate your ability to not just sling mud and dig your heels in despite our differences in opinion.

A few thoughts:

Could it be somewhere in between? As in, the coaches were simply curious? BTW, I have witnessed with my own eyes this situation in reverse. Being in the presence of athletes from our home middle school, NOT asking them if they planned to run for us as freshmen for fear of "recruiting", and then finding out after the fact that we gave the impression to those parents that we didn't care enough about their kids. True story.

I don't fully disagree with you here...but I can't agree, either. Running schools like cost centers in a free market economy only dooms the good schools with poor demographics the way it's currently structured. We all know that schools get the credit/blame for the gifts/curses of their wider communities. We all know that "choice" is only so much so and that it helps exacerbate the difference between the haves and have nots. But we also must realize that taking choice away from families, just asking them to buck up and take what's given to them is also not an optimal solution. Just because it's the way it used to be here doesn't mean it's the best way. I don't have the answer here, but this seems like a matter of trade-offs, and that in essence is what this entire thread is about, no?

All I know is that they provided an opportunity to kids. Could it increase the chances that an upcoming 8th grader will choice in to Niwot HS? Absolutely. Could a slick Instagram account and fancy webpage entice an upcoming 8th grader to choice into Niwot HS? Absolutely. Could "success" - defined at a superficial level of performing well at big meets - entice an upcoming 8th grader to choice into Niwot HS? Absolutely. Could maintaining a large offseason club program that ends up pulling kids from other schools entice an upcoming 8th grader to choice into Niwot HS? Absolutely.

I will say that at our school, we went through this. Another offseason program began to get some kids that went to our HS. We took a look at why this was happening, made some adjustments, redoubled our efforts to give kids the things they were looking for, and now we're dozens strong year-round. The competition has made our team stronger. I'd venture to say that the schools near us have had to up their game in order to retain their kids in the summers and winters, too....which, at the end of the day, has been great for kids around here regardless of school!

Color me skeptical at the assertion that results are paramount to process at Niwot. Recruiting or not, you rarely can have sustained "success" (as defined by results) unless you have a healthy and robust underlying culture. I've listened to the interviews, I've talked to their parents, and those people do not sound like dopers, course cutters, or admissions office bribers to me.

Mad that they're recruiting? Yes, if true then yes. I guess from what has been laid out here in this thread, it does not seem like a systemic culture of blatantly violating rules, more so maybe just a few incidents of lapse of judgment or misinterpretation or jumps to conclusions based off of incomplete information. I've heard talk of probation - sure, great, fine, that in itself (if true) might not even be all that damning. A coach from another school got placed on probation for running his kids on the state course after hours a few years back - didn't make him a cheater, he just screwed up.

As for where the kids came from? Frustrating? Absolutely. But there are a million other potential explanations other than recruiting.

I will tell you this. If I'm a parent of an 8th grader and my kid likes to run, I might do some research. One of the things I might do for my research is check the different schools' XC websites. Niwot's is beautiful. Some(MOST!) of the other northern Front Range schools don't even HAVE a website. It's optics, and Niwot is crushing it. In an age of open enrollment, they are doing a great job of touting what they have built, and why wouldn't an incoming 8th grader be excited about what he sees?