June Eastwood Update

The fact that you read through this whole thread and your biggest concern is still over leveling the playing field rather than the clear prejudice, bigotry, and outright bullying going on is part of the problem. There are people on this page calling her a freak, making fun of her hairline, her height, her body, etc. There is a reasoned, logical debate along the lines of "clearly the rules need to better address the hormone advantage of people like June, because it isn't fair to biologically female athletes as-is" and then there is just straight up attacking a 20ish year old person, calling her unnatural, etc. etc. Imagine if you were born some way or another and people were talking about you this way and then decide if you want to be a part of it. Her bumping other female runners back a place due to a biological advantage is a pretty innocuous thing comparatively speaking. Not a surprised that most of the people that are speaking up about it are guys, either.

25% of the posts in this thread have should have been removed by the mods, but they won't do a thing.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Creaky Bones wrote:

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Even if you think that it isn't fair from a competitive standpoint, you should be ashamed of yourselves for how you are treating a fellow human being in this thread. I can only hope she's smart enough to stay off Letsrun so she doesn't have to see you bigoted paternalistic morons call her names and demean her.

Perhaps, but crazy behavior that is condoned by some segments of society is open to ridicule.

Crazy behavior according to...you?

What are the integral parts of your personality? Everyone has a complex list of things that make them who they are. If she identifies as a woman and not a man, does that affect you any more than someone you'd meet who is a rock climber or something? Debate whether or not it is fair to the other women, fine. But don't bully someone who has done absolutely nothing to you or anyone on here.

The fact that you read through this whole thread and your biggest concern is still over leveling the playing field rather than the clear prejudice, bigotry, and outright bullying going on is part of the problem.

25% of the posts in this thread have should have been removed by the mods, but they won't do a thing.[/quote]

Agreed. I don't condone that and although I don't think she should be competing in women's sports given what we know today, if it turns out that there is sufficient evidence to conclude the treatments available are of negligible long-term risks and there is good evidence that the effects can sufficiently counteract the effects of being male, then I am certainly open to them competing in the NCAA and beyond. The details need to be discussed and I think the women who they are competing against need to be on board and have a large say in whatever policy is created. Read the posts by women on here and other threads. Most don't want to compete with trans women. It is not women in general who matter, but the women are doing the competing who do.

MikeMach1977 wrote:

The fact that you read through this whole thread and your biggest concern is still over leveling the playing field rather than the clear prejudice, bigotry, and outright bullying going on is part of the problem.

25% of the posts in this thread have should have been removed by the mods, but they won't do a thing.

Agreed. I don't condone that and although I don't think she should be competing in women's sports given what we know today, if it turns out that there is sufficient evidence to conclude the treatments available are of negligible long-term risks and there is good evidence that the effects can sufficiently counteract the effects of being male, then I am certainly open to them competing in the NCAA and beyond. The details need to be discussed and I think the women who they are competing against need to be on board and have a large say in whatever policy is created. Read the posts by women on here and other threads. Most don't want to compete with trans women. It is not women in general who matter, but the women are doing the competing who do.[/quote]

It comes down to an interpretation of a transgender women's rights and the opinions of their potential competitors will not be a consideration. It's not exactly the same thing, but the opinions of the owners was not considered when deciding whether blacks were entitled to eat in white only restaurants. The requirement of hormone treatment does show that consideration was given to the fact that males are better athletes than females.

Anyway, the issue was litigated many years ago and the NCAA, USTAF, IAAF and IOC allow transgender females to compete and nothing June does will change that.

Creaky Bones wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Perhaps, but crazy behavior that is condoned by some segments of society is open to ridicule.

Crazy behavior according to...you?

What are the integral parts of your personality? Everyone has a complex list of things that make them who they are. If she identifies as a woman and not a man, does that affect you any more than someone you'd meet who is a rock climber or something? Debate whether or not it is fair to the other women, fine. But don't bully someone who has done absolutely nothing to you or anyone on here.

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Creaky Bones wrote:

Crazy behavior according to...you?

What are the integral parts of your personality? Everyone has a complex list of things that make them who they are. If she identifies as a woman and not a man, does that affect you any more than someone you'd meet who is a rock climber or something? Debate whether or not it is fair to the other women, fine. But don't bully someone who has done absolutely nothing to you or anyone on here.

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Approval from a psychiatrist is required to obtain hormone treatment. What does not being accepted by normal society mean? Discrimination?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Approval from a psychiatrist is required to obtain hormone treatment. What does not being accepted by normal society mean? Discrimination?

Well this comes from someone that believes the Russians are behind everything. Why would I expect anything different from you?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Creaky Bones wrote:

Crazy behavior according to...you?

What are the integral parts of your personality? Everyone has a complex list of things that make them who they are. If she identifies as a woman and not a man, does that affect you any more than someone you'd meet who is a rock climber or something? Debate whether or not it is fair to the other women, fine. But don't bully someone who has done absolutely nothing to you or anyone on here.

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Why do you not think that this behavior should be accepted?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Creaky Bones wrote:

Crazy behavior according to...you?

What are the integral parts of your personality? Everyone has a complex list of things that make them who they are. If she identifies as a woman and not a man, does that affect you any more than someone you'd meet who is a rock climber or something? Debate whether or not it is fair to the other women, fine. But don't bully someone who has done absolutely nothing to you or anyone on here.

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Follow up question: what, in your own words, is gender? What determines a person's gender?

Hzhshshjsj wrote:

Jenny Sandoval, the winner, is a decent runner. She had a 16:21PB

This race was between no-name runners, from no-name schools, on a very fast (or possibly even short) course.

Sandoval is decent, but a non-factor in any competitive race.

So I doubt Eastwood will be a factor in a race with the top runners (e.g. the top women NCAA runners are in the 15:20 - 15:50 5k PB range), even if she can hang with (but ultimately get beaten by) 16:20 - 16:30 runners. She's improving for sure, but it's not unusual for a 17:00ish woman to improve to 16:30ish. Now if she were to beat several women with a PBs faster than 16 that would suggest she might have an unfair advantage. Note she was a decent runner when running with the men pre-transition. The transition has definitely negatively affected her times by minutes. Only time will tell whether the disadvantages vs the advantages cancel or not.

div alum wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Why do you not think that this behavior should be accepted?

Accepted as normal, by definition, it is not normal. Bizarre in fact.

div alum wrote:

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Follow up question: what, in your own words, is gender? What determines a person's gender?

You can believe the gender you are born with can be changed. I am sure I can find some one to put an ear on my forehead. By definition it is not normal behavior. I suppose in your world anything goes.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Creaky Bones wrote:

Crazy behavior according to...you?

What are the integral parts of your personality? Everyone has a complex list of things that make them who they are. If she identifies as a woman and not a man, does that affect you any more than someone you'd meet who is a rock climber or something? Debate whether or not it is fair to the other women, fine. But don't bully someone who has done absolutely nothing to you or anyone on here.

I am not bullying anyone. My claim is the behavior is bizarre and should not be accepted by a normal society. This person needed a psychiatrist more than a surgeon or drugs. I fault people like you who seem believe that this should be an accepted norm.

Should not be accepted by a normal society - like it should be illegal? I accept a lot of things I don't do because it's none of my business how other people live their lives if they are consenting adults and not hurting anyone else. Male to female trans people competing in women's sports is the only place I have a problem with this, otherwise live and let live. It's none of my business what people do with their lives and bodies.

FemaleRunnr wrote:

[quote]Fair isnt equal wrote:

https://md.milesplit.com/athletes/6443284

Is this another man like Jonathan? What is his real name?

This is a 100% male athlete who identifies as female. Although it is not confirmed, those close to the team say there is no hormone therapy, just a male who identifies as female in a female race.

It's important to realize that the key part of Ghost of Igloi's identity on LRC - that he trained under Mihály Iglói in the 60s/70s - is impossible to confirm and perhaps a complete fabrication. Yet, we all play along because we know it means a lot to him .

^and your identity is wrapped up in never have done anything of note; a life of nothingness

You now see my point. I understand my statement was personally aggravating and offensive. Please consider the effect you might be having on others when you speak so callously about fundamental parts of their identity.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

^and your identity is wrapped up in never have done anything of note; a life of nothingness

Oh the irony. wrote:

You now see my point.

I understand my statement was personally aggravating and offensive. Please consider the effect you might be having on others when you speak so callously about fundamental parts of their identity.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

^and your identity is wrapped up in never have done anything of note; a life of nothingness

Last thing we need is moralizing from depraved elements of society.

the runner formerly known as wrote:

FemaleRunnr wrote:

[quote]Fair isnt equal wrote:

https://md.milesplit.com/athletes/6443284

Is this another man like Jonathan? What is his real name?

This is a 100% male athlete who identifies as female. Although it is not confirmed, those close to the team say there is no hormone therapy, just a male who identifies as female in a female race.

Where did you hear that there is no hormone therapy? You're calling her a liar and questioning her commitment to wanting to be female. I call bullsh*t.