Flopped Marathon - HELP!

op - it sounds to me like you had a good game-plan and weren't unrealistic about your goals. One of my friends also ran at Erie that day and unexpectedly blew up badly over the last 10k despite impeccable preparation, and being a veteran marathoner.

One thing I will say - I've done that same Pfitz 18 week 55-70 mile plan with success. I'm kinda shocked to read that you had no problem following the plan to a 't' because that is one tough mf-ing program that's designed to kick your butt if you're doing it right. Now...myself....I did not follow the plan to a 't' since it would have left me exhausted - I postponed some workouts & added in some extra easy days. Looking back, I know that had I stuck to the program I likely would have been able to complete it...but...my taper probably would have turned into a crash with my body wanting/needing to go into a deep cycle of repair. Maybe subconsciously you were too focused on completing the program instead of completing the race?

Possibly next time you might shorten your training cycle - I know now from personal experience that 18 weeks is not optimal for me (but different strokes...) Or take a longer break between cycles?

Not sure, just throwing some possibilities out there. And yeah, maybe later this fall run another marathon after some unstructured training, without worrying so much about time goals and doing the "right" training.

Good luck!

I've only read a few responses so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said. Training isn't racing. There's obviously correlation between how well your training went and how you'll race. But there are loads of stories of people with wonderful prep who flopped and probably a corresponding number of stories from people whose training seemed a mess but who pulled it together and raced really well.

Most of the races I've run did not produce the result I had hoped for despite being well trained. Now and again one produced such results. That's what made the result so satisfying, the unpredictability and uncertainty. If it was just a matter of having run X miles at Y paces for Z distances and bingo, a great time, there'd be very little fun. And I found that I was not unique in this way or even all that different. Most everyone I knew generally came away from races sorry that they didn't go better but now and again being thrilled by one that went even better than expected.

Personally, I think there was nothing that got me to a good performance quite as reliably as having gone down in flames in the previous one. I saw the same thing at times in my sons' races as well. But most people these days don't race very often and I suspect by the time they race again after a flame out a lot of the desire for retribution is gone.

So yes, I'd tell you to give yourself a month of easy running and enter another marathon assuming you still want to have a faster time. There has always been a strong element of serendipity to athletic success. There's tons more to it as well. But if you're in an apple bobbing contest you're more likely to get an apple after three bobs than one. Inexplicable things probably lead to your struggles. Go back and bob another time or two.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Focus on all of the good work you put into the build -- that fitness doesn't just disappear. Maybe you overtrained. Maybe you got a little sick. Maybe the weather wasn't perfect (humidity/dew point). How was your fueling? Etc.

I had a less than stellar marathon back in 2017 and ran another 4 weeks later and set a PR. The fitness was there. The first race was super humid. I had a great build and went out aggressively in the race not wanting to waste my hard work. That was pretty silly tbh. I probably could have run faster in the second race had I approached the first one differently or not had run it at all. I basically did 1 down week, 1 week easy with an 17-18 miler two weeks out, and then mimicked my last two weeks of marathon training again. I think you can play with the schedule based on how far out you choose another race. It's completely up to you if you even want to hit another one. I don't think it's a bad idea. You're fit and can run well on a good weather day.

One poster said, "Lose the hr monitor. It may have kept you from training hard enough." WOW! That is some bad advice.

I would suggest you were not in-tune with your maxHR and you ran too fast for your fitness level. As Hadd always said, everyone knows the guy that can run a 20 miler at 6-minute pace but can't finish a marathon. This is exactly the same.

Your fuel is limited, if you ran faster than your fitness, you ran out of fuel too early and there's no going back.

Think of the HR monitor as your lactate testing device. If you are running too fast but not sure of what % of your maxHR you are running, you may be working too often above a lactate reading (which would indicate the high use of fuel) that would allow you to sustain marathon pace. And subsequently, you are not improving your aerobic threshold (AeT), rather ruining it. Too much faster than your AeT and you work to ruin AeT. You NEED to figure out maxHR for sure. Once you know that, you have to develop - first-and-foremost - a solid aerobic base working at paces SLOWER than AeT.

While it is certainly worthy of having a goal in mind, I always coach a runner to run the marathon based on their current fitness and not some pipe-dream, potentially unrealistic number. AS Hadd always used to say (and I paraphrase), "Find the fitness, then go find a marathon, not the other way around."

Though no one really wants to hear this, I suspect it was 95% (or 100%) anxiety-related. There are some interesting studies out there about how anxiety -- and trying to fight it -- leads to a sensation of physical exhaustion. In other words, being mentally tired = being physically drained. Anecdotally, as a high school coach, I've seen it plenty of times: kids who really, really care and who are putting pressure on themselves (sometimes looking like their dog died and/or practically fighting tears at the starting line) just completely crater in races. But when I've discussed with them, I've never once had a runner volunteer it was anxiety or be willing to acknowledge it at least initially. Usually I'm told something like "I don't know, my legs just felt dead halfway through the race." As a coach, I haven't come up with a perfect solution but try to use some variations on "enjoy the race, it's the reward for all your hard work" and "you can only do what you're capable of, focus on the race (the process) and not the outcome" etc etc. Maybe you should look into some books on mindful running and staying in the moment. In the end, though, you need to find a way to enjoy running for what it is: a hobby and something that you do for enjoyment (since you're not a pro runner and will never be one). Sure, you have goals and like most of us like to challenge yourself and hope to keep improving, but running is still something that is supposed to be fun!

captainkatiedid wrote:

I do struggle with anxiety and couldn’t stop stressing a week out from the race. My HR was high for my remaining taper runs, and they felt like crap. But I slept well all week with a super low resting HR and bumped up my carb intake gradually from 5 days out. I slept poorly the night before the race but felt joyful and confident heading to the start line. I had a bagel with a little peanut butter and jelly and half a banana 2 hours prior.

Just drink 1,5 l of carbo load drink the day before, and eat some easily digestible carbohydrate source like pasta, rice, potatoes etc.

No need to carbload 5 days before.

Half as many people BQ'd compared to last year's marathon and it looks like it was more humid, which makes running harder. Race day conditions count for a lot. So I think you're definitely physically prepared. Don't let this get you down. Maybe race a 10k and see how much you've improved to gain some confidence. I have similar stats to you (PR's and age etc) with a lot of pressure to perform. My mpw avg'd closer to 45 (peaked at 55) with max mileage at 18mi, but I was actually trained at a faster marathon tempo (7:40) so on race day I went conservatively and a 8:00 pace felt relatively easy. I ended up running sub 3:30.

I haven't read all of the posts but your training sounds a little bit much. You need more easy miles and efforts that are not as intense, rather more consistent week to week and for a longer period of time. I've run 2:28 and the longest block at marathon pace in any one run was 10 and usually it's 7 miles. Doing a long run with 14 miles at marathon pace in summer is crazy. It's too much to recover from. I'd say find a coach

My initial take is you over-analyze the crap out of everything and it has become a detriment. Relax and have some confidence in the work you put in. It seems like as soon as things started going south a couple of weeks before the race you panicked and convinced yourself they would keep going south until it became a reality.

There are times when runners need to take a stupid pill so they stop overthinking things and just go out and do it. And sometimes for whatever the reason you just don't have it on a given day. If you can narrow in on the reason great, correct it. But if you can't then move on to the next event.

Why did you start walk / running? Did you feel like you couldn't go another step? Or that if you continued at your current pace you wouldn't finish the race?

I've never run a marathon, so I probably shouldn't chime in, but I am about your age and struggled with successful half marathoning due to the mental aspect. I finally told myself that no matter what I would maintain my target pace until I couldn't go another step, and then I would just stop. Prior to that, I had a bunch of races where I psyched myself out and ran the whole thing slower. When I finally adopted to the hold the pace or quit the race attitude, I had a huge PR. I just wonder if this was truly a physical failure or a mental failure.

What does your heart rate from the race look like? When you slowed down to 8:20 and then slowed to a run-walk, did your heart rate indicate that you were holding an unsustainable pace?

Shite happens.

No worries you next marathon will be a lot better. Give yourself some rest, especially mentally and sign up for another one.

I just had a totally sucky 10k last weekend and I hope to do a better one in a week.

Thanks for the updated information, it seems correct in assuming that you might be training a bit too much, mileage wise. You sound like a super dedicated runner who can do better by doing less. Many years ago I trained a few females in your age category that topped out at 30 miles a week and were able to run under 3:30 for the marathon (NYC Marathon). One ran 3:06 on that mileage (back in the mid 1970's). I also coached a young woman who did 40 miles a week and sometimes up to 50 a week and every indication was she could run sub 3:30, yet would go no faster than 3:45. She was quite intense and a bit anxious, despite efforts to calm her down.

I think the key is to gradually build self confidence by staying within yourself, not over doing the training (which seems to me to be a reflection of self doubt, but I am not a psychologist....ha,ha). You are putting in a lot of hours training, but I think you can get a better return on your time by cutting back on those long, slow miles. As some others mentioned, it would help to work on your shorter distances, bringing those times down and enjoying that aspect of racing. The shorter distances take less out of you and you don't need to put in 18 weeks of long, tedious running (save that for when you are retired :-) ). Your longer runs should be cut back, as I suggested, where perhaps more 11 mile runs at a bit faster pace (closer to marathon pace or even a bit faster) would be of benefit. Your recovery runs should also be a bit faster, probably under 9 min pace for most of the runs.

I am only guessing as I don't know what kind of times you can do for the shorter distances such as the 10k and 5k.

There is an old book I co-authored that you can get on the cheap and I think it will help you. It was written in the early 1980's at a time when distance running by the general public became popular (You can probably find it on Ebay or some other internet source, with postage costing more than the book..). The book is called "The Competitive Runner's Handbook" by Bob Glover and Pete Schuder or the second edition "The New Competitive Runner's Handbook". It was published by Penguin. The third edition was written only by Bob and his wife, so I had no input there.

I am Pete and wrote up the workout schedules for the first two editions, as I did that while head coach at Columbia Univ. I tried to write the workouts with an eye on adults living a busy life, working, maybe having kids and just trying to enjoy competing better. Bob and I used to run the NY City Road Runner's weekly workouts in Central Park where we had 300+ runners each week and many of my workouts were used there.

Check that old book out and see if you can find a category (I am guessing Intermediate) that fits you in terms of your fitness level. The book is old, as am I now, but I think the basics and principles still apply.

Best of luck and I hope your running will improve in the future.

Don't eat peanut butter or anything else high fat before running, because it slows down your digestion and diverts circulation that you need for your running.. Focus on complex carbohydrates and things like bananas. You need to eat carbohydrates to run well.

The 3 hour runs at 9 minute pace were in nowhere land, way too slow for the marathon, and too fast and too tiring for easy runs. Long easy runs for the marathon should be no longer than 18 miles and, for you, no faster than 10 minute pace. However, dividing your running into two runs a day would be much better than doing any long easy runs. I recommend that you do this, which will help you to recover and improve more productively, and to cover more miles more easily.

Again, 8/50-9:20 pace is in nowhere land. Either run at marathon pace or a little bit faster, or else run slow and easy for recovery. Take a look at the Kipchoge training thread. He runs no tempo runs, and nothing slower than marathon pace except for very easy running. He does two sessions a week of 10-15x1k with equal time (or a little less) easy recoveries, and one run at a marathon effort. For you, that would mean running 10 to 13 miles at marathon pace / effort, or a little bit faster.

You ran a 10k and then 20 miles? I would not do that anymore.

gjkjhlhlkj wrote:

I haven't read all of the posts but your training sounds a little bit much. You need more easy miles and efforts that are not as intense, rather more consistent week to week and for a longer period of time. I've run 2:28 and the longest block at marathon pace in any one run was 10 and usually it's 7 miles. Doing a long run with 14 miles at marathon pace in summer is crazy. It's too much to recover from.

I totally agree with this.

Most accurate post I've read, so far.

You need to throw away all plans and stop over thinking and analyzing your running. Schedule to do another 'thon after you can get your 5k and 10k times lower.

No rush, Boston isn't going anywhere. Try to have more fun at racing the shorter distances, before you grind out a 'thon.

Instead of getting depressed about

your bad performance, you can use it as motivation to run on Pure Hate and see if that clears your mind and body to run faster, devoid of fear, and free of failure and disappointment. Also, stay away from HFCS and refined sugar.

T.M.A.D.D.D.H.A.S.F.N.E.

I also have not read every post but I agree with anyone who thought a sub 3:30 was too lofty especially considering temps weren't ideal (max should be 50-55 degrees.) Once you get your half below 1:40 then shoot for 3:30 but now 3:35-3:40 seems more reasonable.

Marathon pace training runs don't have to be done during a long run and I've found long runs about 45 seconds to a minute slower than race pace worked best so your 9 minute long run was fine. Also 70 miles a week can be tough to continue long term as you get older again if running multiple marathons a year so check plans that max around 50-55 for 5 days per week. How far to go is a never ending debate. I prefer longest 23-24 miles but others swear by Hanson's max of 16.

Also check those Revel marathons if you really want an easy shot at a PR/ Boston time.

Tell us about your taper after the training?

OP- Last fall I had almost exactly the same experience as you (although I'm a male). I followed Pfitzinger's 55-70 plan almost exactly, and I was hoping for a 3:35. Then I completely bonked about 15 miles into my race and finished in 4:30. It was a warmer day than I had hoped for, and sometimes I've struggled in the heat. So that made me nervous, and I think the combination of the heat and my anxiety led to a very bad race.

I was so frustrated after the race (and felt like I hadn't really pushed my body all that hard because I walked much of the way after about mile 17) that that evening I signed up for another marathon the next weekend. And 6 days later I ran a 3:49, which I thought wasn't too bad, given what I'd done the weekend before. So my advice would be: don't wait too long to get back out there. You've worked hard to develop great fitness. Your marathon effort probably wasn't too taxing on your body. So you could turnaround quickly and have a great race.