New Study: Vegetarians have higher risk of stroke! hahaha, lol kale breath

Ahh, my friend YMMV,

I wish he could post his PR's so we could see his potential if he would eat less meat and more tofu.

At this point in my life I'm more concerned with health than running PR's. Good for anyone who has found what works for them. I feel sluggish if I don't have a little chicken or fish a few days a week.

coach wrote:

At this point in my life I'm more concerned with health than running PR's. Good for anyone who has found what works for them. I feel sluggish if I don't have a little chicken or fish a few days a week.

Who doesn't like some good chlorinated chicken?

Your prospective is interesting. I switched to not eating me about a year ago and have never been healthier. It's because my diet is better, and I've virtually cut fast and processed foods out of my diet. Eating crap looms too large for me if I have the option of grabbing fast or processed foods. Realistically, outside of Taco Bell, there are very few fast food options that have decent meatless options, and I'm not saying Taco Bell offers the healthiest meatless options either.

I just do not understand, based on numerous reports and studies I've read, how a well rounded vegetarian diet is worse than a "carnivore" diet. I'm not arguing the merits of one over the other, but I just have not found anything definitive stating one diet is definitely better. Coupled with the prevalence of unhealthy meat options in the US, I personally think I'm better off not consuming meat. The temptation of being lazy with my diet and making poor food choices is way too high.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wrong with eating meat, but I absolutely think the US meat craze is largely the result of ad campaigns and interest groups.

keto is the answer to all questions wrote:

99.9% of studies ever: saturated fat is really bad for your health.

High-Fat-Low-Carbers: All nutrition science is bogus. All epidemiology is invalid. All researchers are corrupt and biased. All that matters is that I and one guy I read about got healthier eating HFLC.

a few studies: vegetarianism might not be the best.

HFLCers: Proof that vegetables are the devil!

99% of those studies aren't looking at the makeup of those fats.

As far as saturated fats go, I'd say it's a ways from 99.9% of studies. Here is a meta-analysis that includes over 300k subjects and find no significant associations:

I'm not advocating LCHF stuff, but I don't buy into villifying a particular food type. The bigger issue is it depends dramatically on where this fat is coming from. Grain v grass fed makes a big difference in the actual composition of the fat. Oil types matter significantly.

This is the problem I see with many, I'd say most, nutrition studies. There is a big difference between someone eating a high fat diet doing so with ice cream, standard grain fed meats, canola and other vegetable oils, etc. than compared with someone doing it using grass fed meats, fatty fish, EVOO/coconut oils, butter from grass fed animals, etc.

I do think vegetarian/vegan has issues that are really difficult to overcome in terms of nutrient density and getting essential nutrients, and that's especially true when lots of grains are added for the calories. Is it better than SAD? Sure, by miles. But is it the healthiest way to eat? Probably not.

I don't buy into the full carnivore idea either though. I think getting that around 2g/kg of protein is about right for us active folk, which is still ALOT of meat. But I don't believe eating "primarily" meat is the right answer. Then a bunch of vegetables each day, maybe 8-10+ cups/day. Some, but limited fruit. Same for nuts. Healthy oils, limit processed food.

Honestly I think the biggest things people can do to improve health/diet is:

-Limit/Eliminate processed foods

-Limit/Eliminate refined oils

-Limit/Eliminate grains

Do that and you're already headed in a pretty good way.

I also cannot imagine doing a "carnivore" esque diet if you didn't commit to grass fed products. That would be terribly unhealthy.

You are taking your information and studies from british people. British people are like the armpits of society. Bad teeth...bad at sports...dont win anything...

What vegans dont understand is that MEAT has certain acids that enable the heart to operate in a healthy manner.

Check it out: LINOLEAC ACID.

To go without it risks heart attacks and strokes.

Maybe the study's results have been skewed by former hard partiers who are now vegans? If one smoked anything and everything from age 14 to age 40, then one decides to take up running, take up vegan cult, one is still going to suffer from hedonistic history.

maybe ... wrote:

Maybe the study's results have been skewed by former hard partiers who are now vegans? If one smoked anything and everything from age 14 to age 40, then one decides to take up running, take up vegan cult, one is still going to suffer from hedonistic history.

Possible? Yea.

But, to be suspicious of this we'd need to have an association between hard parting/smoking and people taking up veganism later in life. As far as I know, at the present there is little reason to believe such a correlation exists.

LM wrote:

maybe ... wrote:

Maybe the study's results have been skewed by former hard partiers who are now vegans? If one smoked anything and everything from age 14 to age 40, then one decides to take up running, take up vegan cult, one is still going to suffer from hedonistic history.

Possible? Yea.

But, to be suspicious of this we'd need to have an association between hard parting/smoking and people taking up veganism later in life. As far as I know, at the present there is little reason to believe such a correlation exists.

There may be little reason to believe that a serious study of said correlation exists. Wasn't Steve Jobs a vegan? Steve Jobs admitted to being a hard partier. I am sure there were other individuals in the 1970's who partied hard, took up running and also took up vegan cult. There are not that many runners from the 1970's alive still who partied hard then took up running. We should have had this debate fifteen or so years ago.

There have been dozens of studies and metastudies that show vegans have lower or equivalent risk of stroke.

The data in this study has already been shown to be overcorrected...

Dr Malcolm Finlay, Consultant Cardiologist, Barts Heart Centre, Queen Mary University of London (QMUL), said:

“This paper is the result of a decades-long effort to investigate the effects of diet on health and wellbeing, really seeking to show whether there are health effects of sticking to a vegetarian, or meat-free diet. The excellent data they present show that people who follow a vegetarian diet, or just not-eating meat, were very significantly healthier than meat eaters. This stretches right across the board. Not only did vegetarians have less heart attacks and strokes, but also less high blood pressure, fewer medications, and fewer were diabetic. It is also interesting to note that vegetarian post-menopausal women had less HRT. People who ate fish were moreover slightly less healthy than vegetarians, but all-in-all pretty healthy too.

“Unfortunately, the claim that vegetarians have a higher risk of strokes isn’t really supported by the data, and on my reading, this is putting too much weight on a complex statistical method to try and correct for the fact that the vegetarians were very much healthier than meat eaters. This is almost certainly because their conclusions are based on adjusted hazard ratios: where the researchers basically put the question “what if the meat eaters didn’t have higher blood pressure” and use moderately complicated statistics to adjust the likelihood of stroke and heart attack and so on. This only works if there isn’t an interaction between the “baseline characteristics” – what the people were like when they enrolled into this observational study – and the thing that’s being investigated, in this case what they eat. But there is a clear and well-known effect on diet and blood pressure and diabetes, so correcting for these things and assuming they aren’t caused by diet might be inappropriate. So, while this method can say the risk of stroke isn’t as low as one might expect it to be in vegetarians considering how much healthier they are in general compared to meat-eaters, their overall risk of a major life-changing cardiovascular event happening still appears much lower.”

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs."

What I'm amazed by is that no one mentioned that the study showed that meat eaters had much higher rates of heart disease, which more than made up for the higher stroke rates for vegans/vegetarians, because heart disease is more common. Also the study didn't seem to control for whether a lot more vegetarians and vegans turned to that because they were already in bad health and overweight.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

What I'm amazed by is that no one mentioned that the study showed that meat eaters had much higher rates of heart disease, which more than made up for the higher stroke rates for vegans/vegetarians, because heart disease is more common. Also the study didn't seem to control for whether a lot more vegetarians and vegans turned to that because they were already in bad health and overweight.

Snorting cocaine thickens the arteries. Snorting cocaine damages the heart valves. All the former smokers and coke snorters, who later became runners and vegans all want to deny their truth.

Thanks for quoting from the fundamentalist scripture (authored by vegans and 7th Day Adventists). This vile document will lead to the death and mutilation of thousands of children of vegans since they consider it to be a sanctioning of their deficient diet for developing children. Already we are seeing this:

These murderers ought to be in jail, not authoring dietary position pieces for world organizations. Pure evil incarnate.

Ric Sayre, 2:13 marathoner

Brian Maxwell, 2:14 marathoner, Olympic team for Canada

Micah True, famous ultra runner ("Caballo Blanco" in "Born To Run")

All died in 50s, despite being fit for running. All long-term vegetarians.

-Add Amby Burfoot, diagnosed with heavily-blocked arteries, in his 70s, lifelong vegetarian.

Carbs + seed oils = atherosclerosis. It's not the meat in the Big Mac killing you at Micky D's, it's the bun, fries, and Coke you scarfed with it.

The anti-obesity thread just got deleted and yet this one stands?