LateRunnerPhil - Peaking with Tinman Training for a 5k PR (6 weeks) / Training Log

Looks like Strava pegged him at 3.03mi (or 4.88km). Extrapolating out to 5k would be about 16:10? Not a bad showing at all. Nice running.

heinrich88 wrote:

why is this Tinman famous?

Nevermind. I think I get it now.

webby wrote:

Looks like success: 15:46 for 5th place.

Whatever the actual distance, that's a great result. Congrats, Phillipp!

https://www.maxfunsports.com/result-pdf?competitionId=2943&gender=m

+1

english professer wrote:

Looks like Strava pegged him at 3.03mi (or 4.88km). Extrapolating out to 5k would be about 16:10? Not a bad showing at all. Nice running.

Finishing the last 1/2 mile in 2:25 bodes well for 15:xx. At any rate, 3:20 looks like a very reasonable CV pace now.

My Strava post:

Course was short. Extrapolated real 5k is 16:15, which is still a 30s PR. The 2nd place female was much smarter than me, she did 100m extra after the finish to make it a real 5k. Well, next year I can do the same xD

I went out hard at 3k effort the first 45s then settled in my average pace which turned out to be 3:20/k. I was struggling between 2nd-4th k but was lucky to run in a group led by the later female winner most of the time. 600m before the finish I was in 12th place, with few runners directly ahead of me and a larger pack around 50m ahead. I did a gradual acceleration, starting from 3:10/k all the way down to 2:20/k and managed to pass all runners who were in range to finish 5th. Could have gone even faster at the end but no one put up a fight.

Very happy to see how I went from 22 min 5k just two years ago to a low 16 already. Hopefully this gives hope to other runners who aren't fast/talented at the start but really want to put in the work to become better. For me, this is just the beginning!

webby wrote:

english professer wrote:

Looks like Strava pegged him at 3.03mi (or 4.88km). Extrapolating out to 5k would be about 16:10? Not a bad showing at all. Nice running.

Finishing the last 1/2 mile in 2:25 bodes well for 15:xx. At any rate, 3:20 looks like a very reasonable CV pace now.

I have done 5k's with higher HR, so there definitely is room for improvement. I didn't feel much pain in the race, although I was breathing and gasping harder than the people around me. My pain threshold is just extremely high. Last fall at the end of each XC race (8k) I would dry heave the last 500m or so, today I was fine during the run I was just close to vomiting a few mins after the run which is perfectly fine. The fitter I get, the easier hard efforts become.

I tapered for this race which made a huge difference. Recommended CV pace is around 3:20-3:25/k, but that's not taking into account that my 10k is weaker AND that I'm not as fresh on a typical workout day. So there is absolutely no reason to go any faster than 3:20, and even 3:25 would be good enough for me.

A fast 5k doesn't mean I'm a good runner - the first 1k and last 1k are pretty much free since I got very good speed, but my 5k pace during 2nd, 3rd and 4th k was only 3:20/k. In a 5k, that means 40% of it are my strength, in a 10k a slightly faster start and kick barely matter (if I even have something in the tank left to kick in a 10k).

In the next few weeks I might do more races to gain more experience and stabilize my racing performances. Training wise, it's important to make 3:20/k pace and 3:30/k pace feel easier, so I can go faster in a full 5k and not just at the start and the end. My CV reps during the summer have been too fast (always around 5k effort), so my stamina is my weak point now (ability to hold a strong pace during a race). That's also why the start and finish feel easy now, since I always trained at faster paces I'm anaerobically strong but need to elevate my stamina to be able to compete with faster guys.

The mentioned Listabarth here is a 2:18 marathoner with no speed (3:56 1500, 2:00 800), I don't think I will ever get on his level in 3k+ but if I could actually beat him with my superior speed.

Thanks again for sharing your training in such detail and not being too put off by the criticism. You definitely influenced my training. Specifically, you motivated me to add miles, to increase my CV intervals from 800s to 1000s, and to add more reps. I was already emulating tinman training, but it was interesting to see your interpretation and to compare results. I am 25 years older than you are and started running after a 15-year hiatus in April of 2018, about 4 minutes behind you (24:00 in my first 5K) -- but my story is otherwise quite similar. I've dropped almost 4 minutes in 16 months. So I find myself today right where you were in January of 2018. We'll see how much longer I can hold your trajectory!

Surprisingly, my growth is still accelerating. (I dropped 10 seconds/month for the first six months; had a non-running injury and didn't improve for the next three months; dropped 17 seconds/month for the next four months; and have dropped 22 seconds/month for the most recent four months.) Over that time, I very gradually increased my weekly mileage from 15 to 45, and only added a second weekly workout about five months ago. I rarely do strides or include more than two "layers" in my days, so it feels like I've only implemented about 70% of classic tinman training. If you do quit posting your training (I hope you don't), I may try to carry the torch and post my training for awhile.

Congratulations again!

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

My CV reps during the summer have been too fast (always around 5k effort), so my stamina is my weak point now (ability to hold a strong pace during a race). That's also why the start and finish feel easy now, since I always trained at faster paces I'm anaerobically strong but need to elevate my stamina to be able to compete with faster guys.

The mentioned Listabarth here is a 2:18 marathoner with no speed (3:56 1500, 2:00 800), I don't think I will ever get on his level in 3k+ but if I could actually beat him with my superior speed.

Congratulations Phil, 15:46 is a great result. Bit of a shame the course is around 100m short but extrapolation gives you 16 low. With better endurance from a few more years of training, my guess is 15 low for an accurate 5000m is a realistic goal. It will be interesting to see if you can get down to 4:00 for 1500m. Although that's "no speed" it's fast enough if you are strong aerobically to run 8:15, 14:20, 30:00. Bill Rodgers ran 2:09 off similar 1500m speed.

FYI, having speed does not guarantee a fast last kilometer by any stretch of the imagination. You can run 15:xx right now, or very close to it. Just put your pain tolerance to the test five minutes earlier.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

The mentioned Listabarth here is a 2:18 marathoner with no speed (3:56 1500, 2:00 800), I don't think I will ever get on his level in 3k+ but if I could actually beat him with my superior speed.

What are your PR´s (200, 400, 800, 1500)? Please post your "superior speed" results.

Superior Speed Poster wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

The mentioned Listabarth here is a 2:18 marathoner with no speed (3:56 1500, 2:00 800), I don't think I will ever get on his level in 3k+ but if I could actually beat him with my superior speed.

What are your PR´s (200, 400, 800, 1500)? Please post your "superior speed" results.

I haven't raced these distances yet. I'm a tall (6'2"), heavy (160 lbs) guy who always excelled at speed but had no endurance before I started significant aerobic training (first on bike/water, then after 5 years of 3-5 mpw I was finally able to increase running mileage last year).

Each runner has his own unique muscle fiber distribution (fast-twitch and slow-twitch). Someone who runs "only" 2:00/3:56 but then a 14:16 5k, 29:20 10k and 2:18 marathon clearly is an endurance monster with many slow-twitch fibers. There is a reason he is already specializing on the marathon in his early/mid 20s.

A 2:00 800m is a time that many HS kids run, but almost none of them will ever run 14:16 or sub 30. Someone could have a range of 2:01/4:10/15:30/32:50 and have more FT fibers in relation, but just less running talent overall. This might be the case for me, but for now my goals are 2:00/4:00/15:00 which won't be easy for someone turning 32 in half a year and currently only on 16:10 level on somewhat decent training already. Justyn Knight ran 14:46 on 35 mpw as 16-year old, whereas I only ran 16:10 on 65 mpw, that's the power of running talent.

runnerrunner100 wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

My 5k progression (all races on road):

01/18 - 20:05

04/18 - 18:52

05/18 - 18:25

09/18 - 17:37

03/19 - 17:18

04/19 - 16:45 (adjusted 4.2k race time)

09/19 - 16:15

Are you suggesting that I (17:26min 14 year old, off some really bad training) have 15:30 potential come next May?

I just added my new times to the progression you quoted. I only improved from 17:37 to 16:15 in the last year, which is much worse than Drew Hunter's improvement from 18:15 to 15:45 (XC) when he was a sophomore. One year before that I improved from ~22:00 to 17:37. So the big improvements aren't here anymore, next year I can target mid-low 15s but for a real sub 15 I might need another year of quality, injury-free training (I haven't tried a track and spikes yet tho which should be faster than a road race).

Why did Hunter improve more?

1) He wasn't coached by Tinman yet back then, but his parents coached him using Tinman's philosophies. I think training wise, we were similar but he did a better job sticking at true CV pace whereas I went too hard in many workouts

2) He was growing, that alone will help him much more than someone in his early 30s

3) He is much more talented

For you, you are already faster than Hunter was at 14 indicating huge potential. With perfect training in a good team environment and top HS coach you might have a chance at 15:30, but I wouldn't aim for it. Also, there is "base talent" (how fast a runner is on little training) and "improvability", it could be that you are just very fast without much training but your body might not be as good at responding to training than others. Each runner is individual! GL with your progression and HS career.

Congrats Phillipp, a great result!

I think I will try this kind of training during my next training round.

Serious question: would you mind to share your weight and height?

Less serious question: why isn't LetsRun mentioned in the "Verein" column of the results?

english professer wrote:

Looks like Strava pegged him at 3.03mi (or 4.88km). Extrapolating out to 5k would be about 16:10? Not a bad showing at all. Nice running.

It was a downhill course also. Id' add 10-20s for that on top, so i'd say points to a good 16.30ish 5K?

Still a good time and race though, so well done Phil.

HITHEREYOU wrote:

english professer wrote:

Looks like Strava pegged him at 3.03mi (or 4.88km). Extrapolating out to 5k would be about 16:10? Not a bad showing at all. Nice running.

It was a downhill course also. Id' add 10-20s for that on top, so i'd say points to a good 16.30ish 5K?

Still a good time and race though, so well done Phil.

It was mostly flat. Maybe slight difference between start and finish (it wasn't a complete circle, just like 97%) and 1% up/down at points. I think this really was a 16:15 performance, maybe even 16:10. Good time, but didn't meet my goal even tho the race was very good for it (lots of competition, fast course, good atmosphere). 16:30 might be the time I can time-trial in a race, maybe I'll sign up for more 5k's to practice pacing and frontrunning. Would be good if I can average 3:16/k for each k without getting slower, this race had k2-4 at 3:20/k which is not satisfying.

Yeah sorry wasn't meant to be critical, just putting that out there.

Really enjoy reading your posts and training in this thread, love your enthusiasm. Keep it up and i'd say an actual sub 16 time should be yours by year end. I think going sub 15 over the next year might be pushing it though. Thumbs up from me.

I'd love it if you would keep this thread going about training and progression. Perhaps I'm also a Tinman fanboy, but your thoughtfulness and thoroughness in training is cool to watch.

tinmanreader wrote:

Congrats Phillipp, a great result!

I think I will try this kind of training during my next training round.

Serious question: would you mind to share your weight and height?

6'2" / 188 cm

159 lbs / 72 kg

Lost 3-4 kg during a crash diet in 2-3 days two months ago or so. But I've been struggling with dehydration issues and sore throats constantly since then, but I think the culprit were the VO2MAX workouts (3:00-3:10/k pace) where my throat always gets extremely dry. Climate here is super dry, which is bad the for bronchia. Since the race yesterday my throat is a mess again, sigh. I also felt I was working harder than the others (breathing and making weird/loud noises) but heart-rate wise I was fine.

GL with the training!

Before this thread dies out and nobody looks at it again, can you list Andrew Hunter's progression from the age of 15 onwards