LateRunnerPhil - Peaking with Tinman Training for a 5k PR (6 weeks) / Training Log

This is interesting to me as I'm the same age as you with a similar background. I haven't gotten a coach but I feel like I'm knowledgeable enough to get myself to where you are now without one although I've been injured for a bit. Typically I'm not prone to injury so this really sucks but I believe I'm through the worst of it. Good luck and I'll be following your progress.

People do not respons much to these kind og threads because they do not offer controversy, many read even though. Just post, it is interesting.

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:

This is interesting to me as I'm the same age as you with a similar background. I haven't gotten a coach but I feel like I'm knowledgeable enough to get myself to where you are now without one although I've been injured for a bit. Typically I'm not prone to injury so this really sucks but I believe I'm through the worst of it. Good luck and I'll be following your progress.

What injuries did you have? I went from 15 years of no walking/any sports and just sitting to running. Initially, I couldn't even run 1 mile without stopping. I improved quickly to around 10k in 55 min, but got chronic shin splints (only ran on concrete, low cadence, the heaviest stability shoes, each run was a tempo, and each run ended with a 200m sprint in 25 on concrete, etc). Took me 5 years to finally be able to run, in which I cross-trained a decent amount. Shin splints these days are still probably one of my main limiters, especially after some time off they come back quickly or when I increase volume. I run mostly on forest trails now, extremely soft and can handle around 60 mpw with no problems at these soft surfaces. My cadence increased to ~180 on easy runs.

Second injury was a minor ITBS on a knee. I did a fast hilly long run on the day after an all-out race and got rolling on the downhills. Went away quickly. Also had 2 knee injuries by tripping over roots on trail runs but healed very quickly.

Third injury was in training camp this year, where I increased mileage by 80% from 50 mpw to 85 mpw. One night I woke up and had excruciating pain in my left big toe, in the sesamoid area. I thought it's stress fracture or sesamoiditis. I couldn't walk normally the first days and one-leg-humped. Took no day off and trained through it by changing my gait slightly (landing more on the right leg, and completely on the outside of the left foot), finished the training camp and had two of my best workouts despite the pain. Just a month ago or so I found out it was neither stress fracture nor sesamoiditis, but a condition called "gout". This is due to way too much uric acid in the body. In the training camp, I was overeating as I never trained so much before. In general, my diet was fucked up, I would eat incredible amounts of meat and fish every day and pretty much anything had uric acid in it. I ate 7000-8000 kcal but only used up around 4000-5000. I found out about this because the same spot hurt again this time but I didn't increase my mileage just the overall amount of training (with swimming and running) and was over-eating again. A blood test confirmed it (there is only a short window tho to catch gout). The doctor said also the heavy clicking/cracking sound of the left big toe when gout is active is another sign for it. Since cleaning up my diet, no problem anymore.

Lastly, I had a real stress reaction/fracture on my right foot which caused me to take 3 weeks off in May. It resulted from a combination of different things - I switched to lightweight trainer (Boston), did long runs and tempos on asphalt, and primarily because I had huge, painful blisters in my left foot toes I switched gait once again and put a lot of pressure on my right leg. That caused my right feet to develop the stress reaction/fracture on one of the metarsals. Both foot injuries also happened when I was exclusively forefoot striking (on purpose just running on balls of the foot without touching ground with the heel, which I originally did to soften shin splints). I'm running more midfoot now.

Injuries are part of the life of a runner who is improving quickly and pushing his limits. Most of them are a learning experience, like figuring out when to run through something and when not. I'm quite aggressive in my approach, as I witnessed many things healing even while I still run easily on it, but I can't recommend it to others as each of us got his own individual "healing abilities", I tend to recover quite fast from injuries.

SprintTriathlon wrote:

People do not respons much to these kind og threads because they do not offer controversy, many read even though. Just post, it is interesting.

The 5k progressions are bullshit, they were short road courses, one was even an "adjusted 4.2k race time" lol.

This fella's a fantasist who's big on theory, he's shown that on other threads.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

I have been a weak, sedentary runner (last person in school 12 minute track test) and spent the majority of my life sitting as pro video gamer.

My 5k progression (all races on road):

01/18 - 20:05

04/18 - 18:52

05/18 - 18:25

09/18 - 17:37

03/19 - 17:18

04/19 - 16:55 (adjusted 4.2k race time)

09/19 - Goal: 15:xx

What is bullshit about the progressions? Even if he adjust the 4.2 k to 5 k, I am sure he knows how to do it.

I often disagree with Phillipp and he is not always right even if he pretends to be, but he very often bring meat to the table so we can feast and have discussions, and your response to one that tries to contribute positively to the boards is out of line.

I've only been injured twice. Hamstring strain last year that curtailed my workouts but didn't affect my volume whatsoever so I still was able to run between 50-65mpw and create a solid base and when that went away I was able to run good workouts and improve. Unfortunately a different issue cropped up and I wasn't able to fully capitalize on my fitness at the time. What I have been dealing with now is a hip flexor strain. I beat some competitors that have run in the 17:20 range at longer distance during that time. From starting at nearly 210 lbs I've come a long way but feel I can do better.

How have you figured out the weekly plans? I understand the use of his calculator, but wondered about putting together the training plans for the CVs and Tempos.

What would Tinman training look like for a 14 year old runner?

good luck and let us know.

very ambitious plan. just two questions: am i wrong that i can't see any regular rest days?

quote: "I switched to lightweight trainer (Boston), did long runs and tempos on asphalt, and primarily because I had huge, painful blisters in my left foot toes I switched gait once again and put a lot of pressure on my right leg."

are you really sure that it is a good idea to train with a wrong and bad technique during an injury?

SamH wrote:

What would Tinman training look like for a 14 year old runner?

That would depend on your current level. His first priority is, to get up to 7 days of running, at least 1 hour each day. Two days, he would have you do workouts (one CV, one Tinman Tempo) and one day a long run at easy pace.

By the time he was 15, Drew Hunter was at that level. He ran 18:15 on a 5k XC course, then started Tinman training with the following schedule:

Mo - long run, up to 80-90 minutes over hilly terrain

Tu - easy run, 1 hour with strides

We - CV workout, 5-6x1000 @CV, followed by 4x200 progressive in 33-31

Th - easy run, 1 hour

Fr - easy run, 1 hour

Sat - Tinman Tempo of 4 miles (just under 6 min/mi pace), followed by 4x30sec hill sprints (jog down recovery). OR race

Sun - easy run, 1 hour

In this time, races served as his specific VO2MAX work. He didn't do any harder/faster training than this. His body was able to absorb every single run, every single workout and get faster and faster. 0 times off with injuries.

50-55 mpw, very easy/long runs (7:30-8:00/mi)

Results? He improved at Oatlands, VA, one of the toughest/hillies XC courses from 18:15 to 15:45 in very competitive field (4000 runners run that course it's a huge meet) from 09/2012 to 09/2013. Meanwhile other kids were hammering VO2MAX intervals week after week, peaking early or in the worst case needed multiple weeks/months off due to injuries.

For new runners/high schoolers Tinman training gotta be one of the best ways to train and improve. I tried Daniels for a few months last year becaused I questioned Tinman training "is this everything? This is too easy! I can do more and harder!" and stagnated. Switched back to Tinman and started improving again.

sugarman wrote:

good luck and let us know.

very ambitious plan. just two questions: am i wrong that i can't see any regular rest days?

quote: "I switched to lightweight trainer (Boston), did long runs and tempos on asphalt, and primarily because I had huge, painful blisters in my left foot toes I switched gait once again and put a lot of pressure on my right leg."

are you really sure that it is a good idea to train with a wrong and bad technique during an injury?

One key of Tinman training is to run 7 days a week. He hates taking days off, saying injury rates improve dramatically after the day off and that blood volume drops significantly during that day. The easy days are at such easy pace, that they are recovery, maybe even more than a full day off as I get the blood flow going to the legs which helps them recover. If I feel really bad on a day, I either run super slow or do two shorter runs. If running really isn't possible, Tinman would recommend to cross-train 1-2 hours to at least keep the blood volume up.

I made MANY mistakes since I started running. Running with changed gait is very dangerous, it led to some pains/injuries and I'm much more careful about it now. Still, sometimes it might be better than taking full time off, which dramatically reduces fitness for me. I'm also training through shin splints now when I get them again, key is to do it carefully. Otherwise, they always come back but if I train too hard on them the pain becomes unbearable, it's all about finding that middle.

How strange , my 5k pr right now is 18:17

I have heard about trying to build up to one hour a day however, how would this progress throughout the rest of high school?

Ok, running every day, one long run, one tempo, one workout. Very much standard. I don't think Tinman invented this and definitely not all 15 year olds improve from 18:15 to 15:45 with this approach within one year. There is more behind good and mediocre training and I think Tinman knows this, but you might not.

At the minute I run 20-25 miles a week (3 hard sessions a week+ one long run at an easy pace- 60 mins) how should I build up to one hour a day?

At my athletics club in the UK , hard running is all we do, 3 times a week, however I have friends there and people to train with, should I leave the athletics club and do proper training or should I stay and make do of it the best I can?The sessions are on Tuesday, Thursday Saturday, can I adapt tinman training to make it work around these sessions?

SamH wrote:

At the minute I run 20-25 miles a week (3 hard sessions a week+ one long run at an easy pace- 60 mins) how should I build up to one hour a day?

At my athletics club in the UK , hard running is all we do, 3 times a week, however I have friends there and people to train with, should I leave the athletics club and do proper training or should I stay and make do of it the best I can?The sessions are on Tuesday, Thursday Saturday, can I adapt tinman training to make it work around these sessions?

UK athletics clubs don't usually tell young runners how to train outside of club sessions. But there will be lots of coaches who live near you who can advise.

Building up to one hour a day is a lot for a young runner. Build up very gradually. You have plenty of time.

Partridge wrote:

Ok, running every day, one long run, one tempo, one workout. Very much standard. I don't think Tinman invented this and definitely not all 15 year olds improve from 18:15 to 15:45 with this approach within one year. There is more behind good and mediocre training and I think Tinman knows this, but you might not.

No, Tinman training is unfortunately not standard! Long run, tempo, workout can mean something VERY different. I show you the differences to many high schools:

1) Many HS run the long run as workout, running much harder than necessary.

2) Many HS hammer all easy days. Tinman says "no faster than 2 min/mile slower than 5k pace!"

3) Many HS hammer the tempo runs, often turning them into a race effort. Tinman tempo is marathon pace, which is significantly slower than threshold. Most coaches prescribe threshold for tempos, where going just a bit too fast is gonna kill the kids. In a Tinman Tempo, the prescribed pace is so slow that kids are still ok even if they do them a bit too fast.

4) Many HS race 1-2x a week, and then still do 2 workouts and a hard long run on top of that. Tinman would never agree to such a system, he limits the amount of racing and if there is a race in a week there will only be one more, very moderate workout.

5) Many HS coaches prescribe hard VO2MAX sessions (3-5k pace or faster) week after week in high volume. I like to call them "super-hero workouts". What happens is that kids get in shape extremely quickly (well, the few that survive the workouts and don't get injured), but then performance plateaus and by the time regionals come the kids are toast. They go out very hard easily at regionals, but don't have enough stamina anymore due to heavy tapers and focus on intensity and die 1-2 miles in.

Loudon Valley (also known as Purcellville) dominated NXN for two consecutive years. What training system do they use? Tinman's! They were a no-name school before the Hunter's took over and their previous coach was terrible. So much talent but no good coaching. Sadly, that's how most HS are. Since the Hunter's took over, using Tinman philosophies (Tinman used to coach Joan Hunter as master's runner, then helped her with coaching Drew before taking over his training) the school went from a no-name to a powerhouse ranked #1 in the nation. The previous head coach was overracing the kids which often caused disagreements with the Hunter's who were just volunteer assistant coaches back in 2013. Once they took over in early 2014, Loudon Valley started improving dramatically, and the roster increased from 50 runners to 130 with over 100 being rejected each year.

Sure, there are more factors than just using Tinman training, like getting all the little things right, but we can't deny the fact that Tinman training is incredibly effective for new runners/HS kids. Low chance of injuries, very low chance of burnouts, but great, gradual development of fitness and plenty of possibilities for improvement later on.

SamH wrote:

At the minute I run 20-25 miles a week (3 hard sessions a week+ one long run at an easy pace- 60 mins) how should I build up to one hour a day?

At my athletics club in the UK , hard running is all we do, 3 times a week, however I have friends there and people to train with, should I leave the athletics club and do proper training or should I stay and make do of it the best I can?The sessions are on Tuesday, Thursday Saturday, can I adapt tinman training to make it work around these sessions?

I read your other thread. Congrats on reaching very fast times already at age 14. You seem to be talented especially for longer distances.

Your goal of reaching 50-60 km in the next week as stated in the other thread is great. For progression, this was Drew Hunter's mileage:

Freshman: 65-75k

Sophomore: 75-85k

Junior: 85-100k

Senior: 100-115k

His mileage naturally increased as he got faster, so in 7.5 hours of running each week he would cover more kilometers. I'll give you a decent Tinman-inspired plan:

Mo - 40 min easy+strides (8k)

Tu - 4x1k in 3:45, 200m rest, 4x200 in 36-35-34-33 + wu/cd (12k)

We - 40 min easy (8k)

Th - 40 min easy (8k)

Fr - 40 min easy+8x10s hill sprints (8k)

Sa - 3-4 mile tempo run (you can use parkrun for this with your athletics club), ~3:55-4:00/k. For 4 miles, just add one mile directly after the parkrun is over. then do 4x30 sec hill sprints, or 4x30sec on, 1 min off. (10k)

Su - 60-70 min long run (12-14k)

This gives you 66-68k/week which should be achievable after building up your mileage in the next weeks. Make sure easy runs are very easy, no faster than 5 min/k pace. Run with girls or friends if that helps you keep it slow.

Alternatively, I think 3 hard runs a week can also work. Let's say you do 6k continous tempo runs with your club 3x a week, you could do 2x a week in 3:55-4:00/k (Tinman Tempo) and 1x a week with the fast guys in 3:45/k. The important thing with this type of training is to really keep two of the 3 runs moderate and don't have 3 very hard group runs in a week.

You are a young, talented guy and the only thing that can hinder your progression are burn-out and injuries. Make sure to take everything slowly, do lots of strength and conditioning, sleep a lot and eat well and you will be a force in the future in the UK!

On the other thread I mentioned building up to 50-60k per week over the next 12 weeks, After track I took a 2 week break, before the break I ran about 35k+ per week however coming back from the break , I plan to build from 20k(to start off) to 50-60k per week over the next 12 weeks. During this period I am only going to go to 1 club session each week to focus on the build up.

You mentioned the club doing tempo runs, however all they do is just intervals as fast as possible. However I was thinking that run these at tempo /threshold/CV pace or something.

Thanks for the plan anyway. I am definitely considering following Tinman training.

Are you currently/have you been coached by Tinman?