The Ingebrigtsen's prove that the East African 'natural born runner' superiority is a myth. Here's why.

Coevett wrote:

no logic to see here wrote:

Why? Can you please explain, Coevet?

This was a pastiche of the racist thread from last week, which talked about the Ingebrigtsens being dirty simply because they shared the same genetics and that white people were genetically inferior to East Africans -

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9503663

But yes, it is unlikely that, given all the different genetic populations in the world, the best genetic populations for running would both reside in two very different places in Africa, completely unrelated to each other, and the only thing they have in common is largely being home to a massive doping culture in athletics, as well more generally being among the most corrupt nations on Earth.

As far as the assumption that the Ingebrigtsens are clean, I do have confidence they are clean, but at any rate, they are subjected to far more rigorous testing than East Africans, immeasurably more so than Ethiopians, we can also be sure that Jakob is 18, unlike all the African junior stars.

Even if they were microdosing EPO (which I don't believe), or (slightly less unlikely) bending the rules with asthma medication or the like (which I also don't believe), the performances of all three brothers, but Jakob in particular, have demolished the notion that East Africans are genetically more talented at running.

Coevett wrote:

no logic to see here wrote:

Why? Can you please explain, Coevet?

This was a pastiche of the racist thread from last week, which talked about the Ingebrigtsens being dirty simply because they shared the same genetics and that white people were genetically inferior to East Africans -

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9503663

But yes, it is unlikely that, given all the different genetic populations in the world, the best genetic populations for running would both reside in two very different places in Africa, completely unrelated to each other, and the only thing they have in common is largely being home to a massive doping culture in athletics, as well more generally being among the most corrupt nations on Earth.

As far as the assumption that the Ingebrigtsens are clean, I do have confidence they are clean, but at any rate, they are subjected to far more rigorous testing than East Africans, immeasurably more so than Ethiopians, we can also be sure that Jakob is 18, unlike all the African junior stars.

Even if they were microdosing EPO (which I don't believe), or (slightly less unlikely) bending the rules with asthma medication or the like (which I also don't believe), the performances of all three brothers, but Jakob in particular, have demolished the notion that East Africans are genetically more talented at running.

Natural Talents wrote:

One proud Norwegian father with a different mentality then other Non-Africans of the last several decades and determines that he will make his sons the best. “If the African teenagers can do it why can’t my Norwegian ones”.

Forgive my English as I present my argument, but I am a native Spanish speaker.

• Filip and Henry already showed that one European family with elite genetics could compete clean with African rivals who are at least to a large part doped up. Now with the years of experience of guiding the older brothers and learning through trial and error, the father Gjert as well as the mentorship of the brothers has produced the sensation that is Jakob

•For not one but THREE BROTHERS to match the best of Africa would indicate that elite level Europeans in the right environment of training and dedication ought to be as fast as the best Africans who we now know - for example Kiprop, Kiptum etc - have been doping.

•An exceptional talent like Jakob in the right environment has already achieved more than any legitimate 18 year old African, and he has done it clean in a country with rigorous testing standards - the opposite of East Africa. If his progression continues, as it has steadily for the last five years, he will surely smash the EPO peak era records of El G and Bekele. He could well achieve this before the age of 21 CLEAN.

•Although Jakob is clearly a once in a generation talent, and perhaps the greatest runner in history, it's unlikely that he can be THAT so much of a genetic outlier to other Europeans. If 18 year old Jakob can demonstrably run sub 3:30 and sub 13:00 clean then these times are surely achievable for other elite Non-African runners.

•And in fact Jakob's performances only seem 'unearthly' rather than simply genius, because of the decline of athletics and in particular middle and long distance running over the last few decades. Coe, Cram, Ovett, Ryun, Snell, Elliott etc. all would be running 3:26 or faster today CLEAN. In fact, all ran equivalent times or displayed similar talent before EPO had even been invented, and in the case of Elliott and Snell before blood doping was even a thing.

• However, we do not in all honesty know that Africans have ever ran these kind of times without doping. Further, the decline in European times was in large part due to the African doping fueled domination, itself justified and masked by the 'natural superiority' fabrication.

• We may say that Keino first showed the 'natural talent' of Africans and he is widely credited with initiating the 'African invasion' but unfortunately there are concerns that have come to light with the traditional narrative.

•One dodgy Dutch sports scientist decided to go to Kenya and 'prove' that they were genetically superior runners to the rest of the world. Up to that point, East Africans had shown nothing, and were regularly employed as pacemakers for European races simply because whilst durable and fit in numbers, they appeared unable to produce a truly competitive runner. Within a decade, the sports scientist had fulfilled his own lucrative prophesy and produced stars such as Keino.

•In early 68, Keino and other top Kenyan stars, including Rudisha's father, forced the Dutchman out, claiming that he had colonial attitudes and was garnering all the credit. Suddenly, Keino and the other star's form deserted them. Finally, Keino went back to the Dutchman grovelling for an apology, and he was restored as head coach of the Kenyan Olympic team just in time.

•Although the form of the top Kenyans quickly returned, Keino himself was suffering in Mexico. Collapsing in the 10000m, and apparently near to death, he was confined to bed in hospital seriously ill. Yet to everbody's surprise, he decided to enter the 1500m and take on his great rival Ryun, who had dominated him in previous races. According to legend, Keino escaped from his hospital ward and ran to the stadium at the last moment, only managing to line up for the final with seconds to spare. Ryun was shocked and concerned at the sight of his great foe risen from his death bed, and chose to ignore Kenio when he raced to the front, pursuing an apparently insane pace. Ryun genuinely believed that Kenio would collapse if he gave chase.

•Further mystery surrounds the Kenyan 1968 team and the reputation of Kenio. According to Charlie Francis, the coach of Ben Johnson, the IAAF conducted drug tests for the first time for most of the competing athletes (doping rules had however not yet been established) and found that both the Jamaican and the Kenyan teams were ALL doped to the gills with steroids. Kenio himself recently was charged with stealing millions of dollars in his position as head of the Kenyan Rio Olympic team that was intended for the support of young athletes.

•East Africa begins dominating distance running in the 80's, beginning with cross country quickly translated to success on the track. An example of this supposed 'natural African invasion' is John Ngugi, xcountry star and then Champion in Seoul. Unfortunately for the 'natural born runner' hypothesis, Ngugi, like several of the 80's xcountry stars, was suspended for doping violations.

•Whilst East Africans had success in championships, it was in the 90's that they started to apparently demonstrate a capacity to take running into another level with extraordinary times and world records. However, this coincided almost exactly with the introduction of EPO, and the now confirmed part that drug plays in the culture of African running, with numerous doping busts in Morocco and Kenya, and the likes of Ethiopia exempt surely only because of the complete absence of testing.

•Another reason to be doubtful of the 'East African' running genes myth is the success of North Africans, in particular Moroccans in the 90s - above all El G. Not only would it be an unbelievable coincidence that the two most talented genetic groups both happen to reside in the same continent (and a continent known to be rife with doping) but it is known that North Africans, particularly Moroccans, are much more closely related genetically to Europeans than they are to East Africans.

No hope for a clean sport wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Your argument that the Ingebrigtsens are unlikely to be doping only stacks up if testing is effective at catching dopers. It isn't. Tests catch 1-2% of professional and elite sportsmen whereas official WADA estimates of the incidence of doping range from 15-40%. It may even be higher. The Ingebrigtsens could easily be doping and not get caught. If they are as fast or faster than those whom you believe are doping I can't see how they themselves could be clean.

If estimates of up to 40% is given (almost half of all elites) and a measly "1-2%" are only getting caught then this is a crisis!

That translates to 98 -99% of the athletes engaged in doping practices are getting away with cheating!

And examining the AIU provisional suspensions over the last couple of years, the 1-2% getting caught are basically limited to a few countries; Kenya, Ukraine, Belarus, Bahrain & Russia. That means dopers from other nations for the most part are not getting caught! This is a mess and I have very little optimism for a clean sport!