Sad News: Frank Meza Found Dead In LA River

tartarm wrote:

All you losers who defend Derek and LR know the answer to this question

Would Dr. Meza be alive today if not for the internet mob? You know the answer.

Deep down you know the truth. That’s all that need to be said.

Would Dr. Meza be alive today if not for his own tangled web of deceit? You know the answer.

^ fixed that for ya.

Kevin Hadsell wrote:

I have been the subject of some well-deserved scrutiny and “outing” on this board. I created a terribly negative and potentially career-ending scandal...

It was an incredibly tough time and it was a low point that I wish on nobody. ...

I do believe there is a need to draw attention to situations like mine, or cheating, or whatever it is that negatively impacts other people. I can tell you, however, that not everyone has the capacity to handle that and we should be respectful of that......

Just two cents from a former coach.

~Kevin Hadsell

I was engaging in my own $#itty choices about the time Dr Meza started this whole thing... and it came crashing down on me in a way that I both fully deserved and chose not to shy away from. Sure it sucked to be labeled a doper but guess what, that was the truth- and it was a choice made by me and me alone. Did it cost me a reputation, friends, five figures in repayments, and a nice google search record? Of course it did... again, 100% because of my own ($#itty) choices.

I get that not everyone has the capacity to handle such a house of cards coming down but I'm an adamant defender of the concept of personal responsibility for one's actions. Let me tell you, it's quite humbling to have to contact a guy three different times, finally get him on the phone, and have to cajole him into allowing me to repay him by saying "use it for your kids college fund" because he didn't even want to accept it. To be fair, he didn't need it but that wasn't the point, the point was that I had taken it from him and it was a wrong that needed to be righted. Humbling but it's also a personal relief to be taking a correct course of action, instead of continuing an unethical behavior. You sure sleep better at night, no question.

Perhaps this will sound incredibly callous- so be it. Dr Meza had wrongs that needed to be righted. He chose to avoid having to do so. I feel for his family but I'm incredibly disappointed that he chose to avoid assuming ownership of his mistakes and repairing the bridges he burned. As at least one or two posters implored him, repeatedly, it would have made everything subside if he chose to tackle it head on and assume responsibility. I can tell you that it's also very cathartic to start repairing the ways that you've wronged others (sure, in a general sense, perhaps Dr. Meza didn't significantly "wrong" any one particular individual, as compared to my situation) or the community as a whole.

Sad? Yes. Is LRC, MI, LAM, or any of the posters who uncovered info on FM to blame for this? Not one single bit.

cheers, Hesch~

This is in response to those who demand registration before posting.

That anonymity is essential for free speech has been recognized since well before the founding of this country. The original Federalist papers were originally published under a pen name. Both Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson published extensively under pseudonyms. For obvious reasons, there is a Supreme Court decision "NAACP v Alabama" that protects non-profits from being compelled to reveal their contributors. In fact, we have seen case after case in the present day where activists dox political contributors by getting hacked inside information from political action committees. High level executives of Silicon Valley corporations have been fired or forced out for their support of unpopular causes outside of work. The lesson of all this is clear, as is the intent of pro-registration agitators on these message boards: lack of anonymity inhibits free speech because it allows critics to take direct action against the speakers.

If you are offended by the content of LRC and want to avoid that, simply avoid the message boards. There are plenty of places you can hang out that are moderated so that you can stay in your little safe space. Actually, I am appalled by a lot that is said here. I'll take the good with the bad because at least I know that I am hearing more honest utterances than occur in other places (yes, I know that Brojos do censor these boards, but until now they have apparently done so with a light hand). In fact, think about this: if your sensibilities are only confirmed by what you read, are you actually being challenged to think about what you are reading?

People talk about this forum needs moderation. But think about it, would moderation have made a difference? I doubt it.

There is no indication that FM followed that thread, so whatever nastiness dealt out there may never had got to him. Considering that that thread had gone on for months, it's reasonable to assume that it's the mainstream media exposure that triggered the apparent suicide of FM. You can argue that the investigation by posters in that thread led to the media exposure, but would more moderation have changed that? Should moderator prohibit people from investigatin potential cheaters? I don't think so.

It's not that I'm against moderation, it's just that lack of moderation is not the reason this tragedy happened.

In my opinion, one change that could've prevented this is for marathon races to be more strict in cracking down cheating to discourage such behavior. This will be actionable, straight forward, and effective. Is it very difficult to discover the anomaly in FM's results? No. They are exceptionally good, easily attracted attention. He could've been stopped in his track of doing this long before it became too important in his life.

tartarm wrote:

dunes runner wrote:

Exactly.

The LRC forum is unconscionable the way that it attacks people in terrible ways.

I wish it wouldn't be that way, and if it's a reflection of humanity, then that's a sad state of affairs for humanity.

Derek at marathon investigators deserve some heat here. Beyond the mob here. He brought the story to the news. He’s not blameless but will find a way to sat he’s not responsible.

One would have to have a heart of stone not to be shaken by this. I'm shaken. But that's a first response.

If I reflect a little longer, what I think I see is the story of a man who did a lot of good for a lot of people, but somebody--and here I'm speaking strictly about his life as a competitive runner--who also lived a lie over an extended period of time in a way that had many negative real-world consequences. For more than a decade, it would appear, FM was taking medals away from the runners who had rightfully won them. That behavior, which was sustained and calculated, ultimately led him to a place where the records he was claiming, illegitimately, were taking something away from the late Ed Whitlock, a man whom we all DID truly admire.

This is a tragedy in the original sense: something bad, a grievous reversal, happened to somebody who was overreaching in a huge way.

I think that Derek did exactly what he should have done. I think that cheats need to be exposed, and really big cheaters really need to be exposed. I wouldn't second guess that action at all. Nor would I second guess the crowd-sourced LR thread. Good works was done. FM was very skilled in the way that he cheated. Exposing that, figuring out what he'd done and coming to conclusions with a high degree of confidence took a lot of work on the part of a lot of people.

I do think that something happened when network TV got hold of the story. I'm thinking about the clip where Craig Melvin, an anchor I really like, was chuckling. Everybody was chuckling, as though it were a joke. It wasn't a joke. FM's lack of integrity in the matter of running marathons--or not running marathons--was not a joke. It undercut the integrity of the sport in a way with real consequences. But I could have done without the laughter.

It would appear that Meza made one final choice about how to deal with the situation when the real dimensions of his misbehavior began to become clear. That was his choice. One wishes that he felt he had another choice. I don't begrudge him his choice. But neither does it change the way I feel about his lack of integrity as a competitor.

There is a difference between being challenged to confront harsh truths and bullying.

People who live in self-delusion (I believe Frank, RIP, fit in this category when it came to running) are never swayed by the words of the masses to change their ways, especially not anonymous posts on the internet. But it sure as hell can lower their self-esteem and quality of life.

It is usually a single moment of clarity followed by years of discipline & self-improvement that allows them to see their faults. In the case of the cheating thread (and subsequent articles) my concern is that they did nothing to help Frank see the error of his ways and more reinforced one obviously objectionable quality by throwing vitriol and unchecked hatred in his direction. I agree that he could have avoided that for the most part, but even knowing it was happening is sure to have f*cked with his mind.

Whether or not people have a RIGHT to do that is an entirely different question than whether it is the best thing to help people who are lying to themselves & diminishing the legitimate accomplishments of others. I see your point that in the case of the cheating thread people have a right to say what they will but is there not a point where it crosses a line and becomes counterproductive to our aims as runners who want to see a fairer, more honest sport?

In the case of this thread it is a courtesy to his legacy (as complicated as it may be...) and family that the posting is slimmed down a bit. Anonymity on the internet certainly has some advantages, but the biggest outcome in my opinion is that there's just a lot more nonsense (although I live in a glass house when it comes to posting crap on LR) and it definitely does not have the straightforward outcome of having more meaningful debate. I would argue the threads limited to regular or registered posters (training threads, threads that are generally frequented by specific users) still have the best content and most thoughtful discussion of any threads I've read or posted on.

Your points are well taken and free speech should be protected. But in the case of Meza's death, taking extra measures to ensure that his family is respected and not forced to deal with more of this....is the kind thing to do. As a competitor Frank Meza did not show grace and sportsmanship. The LRC mods are showing that grace.

It's also important to remember that it is just running and there are far more valuable things in life. Nothing can replace a lost family member, cheater or not.

Rest in peace, Frank.

Why does it require a death for the message board to finally use common sense and require all p stings to be registered? I never sense to be amazed at the level of cruelty in so many postings. No one would publicly be such an a-hole and denigrate people, but they are emboldened to try to diminish others on the board because they can hide. Even if the end result isn't a suicide, there is real damage being inflicted on undeserving people via this message board. Just like Facebook, Rojo & Wejo bear responsibility for allowing this to happen on their service. Maybe this tragedy will wake them up and require all postings to come from registered users, but I doubt it.

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." -- Mark Twain

One of Frank's supporters who agreed about the cheating intimated that Frank had been through a lot in the last few weeks.

The school apparently whitewashed their in-house media regarding Frank and seemingly washed their hands publicly when questioned by other media outlets. His marathons were none of their concern. A more Human Resources Dept type approach than humane, if you know what I mean. That must have hurt.

Frank's friends were starting to publicly acknowledge that he cheated, some did it on the thread everyone is up in arms about. Again , even though they remained sympathetic, that must have been devastating knowing how tightly Frank was clinging to this marathon deception. He lost his allies.

If there were accomplices, or people who knew well of Franks cheating , it was a matter of time before they were exposed, maybe hours maybe days, or alternatively, it would be very un-comfortbable for them to continue a cover-up if they knew or helped. Frank made it so if that won't happen. Maybe he did it for them too.

Now it's taboo to look into what was going on at the school, or anywhere else. I know it sounds cruel, but I find that to be a unfortunate aspect after a death by suicide in these kind of situations. You can no longer ask hard questions that maybe should still be asked.

Again, it's about a worrisome culture, not harassing Frank or Frank's family. School and other institutions in Franks large network get a free pass and internet posters get the blame.

Sharkman -- weak argument. Free speech is "FREE". All of us also own something called FREE WILL. If the website is too much for you, then simply don't participate.

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness and perspective of this post. You provide one the most meaningful and important messages that this Forum might hope contribute (and be remembered for) regarding this whole episode.

I'm hopeful that your story--given your specific history/context--will reach others that face circumstances that they may perceive in the moment as be unbearable.

Thank you for your willingness to risk an almost certain 'rehash' by some of the self-designated prophets that perch on the outer branches of this forum.

I wish you the best.

This is overwrought. Anonymity may be a useful tool in fighting oppression, but I'm not sure outing course-cutters rises to that standard. If you want to be anonymous because you have legitimate fear of reprisals from the powerful - like, say, the police or someone with enough money to do you harm - and you are pursuing something that is genuinely beneficial to society, that's one thing. But that isn't what anonymous people do, in the main, on message boards or other online fora. They use it to attack the character of identifiable people, and we saw a lot of that in the three threads on Frank Meza.

Want to criticize someone for cheating on a marathon? Fill your boots. There is ample evidence to back that up. What a lot of people did was make impossible logic leaps from cheating in marathons to improprieties in other areas of life, with no evidence to back that up. Doing that from behind the veil of an anonymous account is reprehensible, and has nothing to do with protection of the freedom of speech.

I find this comparison to the personal vindictiveness on the boards laughable. It is not my sensibilities I am worried about, it is the undeserved belittling towards many of the athletes. In a civil society, one would expect such cruelty wouldn't be acceptable. That is a completly different animal than writing anonymously because you are afraid of being arrested for disagreeing with the government.

Free speech also has its limits, and you know them, and if you don’t, Google them. Furthermore, on an internet platform, the owners and administrators get to decide and can in fact moderate or ban speech, it is acts of government that are targeted in freedom of speech and you know it.

Responsible, professional forums require moderation. You disagree, why? Maybe you enjoy the dark arts of character smearing, libel, slander, kicking a dead horse etc. That’s on your poor character bro.

[quote]HaHanonymous wrote:

This is overwrought. Anonymity may be a useful tool in fighting oppression, but I'm not sure outing course-cutters rises to that standard. If you want to be anonymous because you have legitimate fear of reprisals from the powerful - like, say, the police or someone with enough money to do you harm - and you are pursuing something that is genuinely beneficial to society, that's one thing. /quote]

Frank Meza had more power and money than me.

Loyola High School ,any of it's coaches, and even most of its individual parents have more power and money than me.

Any and all Deputy DA's have more power , and probably more money than me.

In fact , probably true for well over half the posters on LR.

We have had two former cheats come on the threads today and state that cheaters getting caught is beneficial to society.

Many people thought there were other potential impacts of even perhaps more harmful consequences to others surrounding this case.

Completely agree.

Outside a track, RDs and/or their official scrutinizers are often loathe to DQ anyone.

This can be due to any number of reasons. Too busy. Too lazy. Lacking basic analytic skill. Greed (wanting to maximize future entry revenue). Fear of retaliatory complaint or litigation. Lack of real understanding of results they publish - for example, competitors turning in splits at WR pace should be a red flag.

When a DQ is issued, unless egregiously obvious, it's often only after someone repeatedly complains and offers up a mountain of evidence.

This essentially enables cheating behavior.

When RDs fail to properly scrutinize times, we either live with corrupt results, or it falls on a concerned public to "set the record" straight.

In fairness to harried RDs, exposing a cheat may involve more knowledge or effort than they or a scrutinizer can reasonably and routinely apply; reviewing mountains of video/photos (some of which may not be available to them), gathering observations from spectators/competitors, comparing past race results, and so on. Again, it performed, this falls to a concerned public.

If Frank was chopping his 5 hour marathon down to 4, even if obvious, nobody would have cared or acted. He really would have only been cheating himself.

He threw himself under the magnifying glass by seriously affecting the competitive result - that's cheating others.

swedishbasteve wrote:

george oscar bluth wrote:

+1

+1

I don't condone cheating, but this could have been handled differently. There was no actual crime, yet people on this forum became the judge, jury, and executioner. The original CIM Dqs were done professionally and discreetly. Yes, those Dqs didn't prevent further cheating, but that's not a race director's job. Did other marathons sit on their hands in regards to Meza? Maybe. One thing is for sure. There was a systematic character assassination of Frank Meza started and perpetuated here. Did he get what he deserved? I don't know. He got what he got.

No we were not the executioner. I find that a rather macabre way of putting it to be honest. As has been said repeatedly, on this thread, most were trying to find how he did it, and prove he did it. Those that went beyond that, were shouted down, and dissuaded profusely. Go read the thread. Then come back to me and apologize.

"You don’t feel bad at all. You are just trying to look like you care. If you really felt bad you’ encourage derek and Letsrun to take down the threads/articles. Any reputable mental health professional will tell you the kind of things LetsRun and MI did can push you over the edge. But almost no one inquired into his mental state. It’s too easy to make a half-truth accusation. You never know the person on the other end"

I seem to recall that many commenters on the thread questioned FM's mental health. Sadly, they were right. Sadly, none of his inner circle could help, apparently

LRC wrote: "Jokes about Frank's death will not be tolerated , nor will posts blaming Good Morning America, the LA Times or internet mobs."

Lots of posts seem to be blaming LRC, MI, Inside Edition, and the internet mob. I guess they will be tolerated after all.

For the most part this is all good discussion so far, but it shows how hard it is to set and enforce standards for message board discussions.