Some pros are lifetime runners. Like Geb. How fast could he run a marathon today?

kyoto wrote:

Some of you are not very bright. Geb is 46 years old. Geb ran 2:08 7 years ago. Geb would struggle to run 2:17 even if he were training full time.

Geb is from an African country, so he must be at least 65 years of age.

kyoto wrote:

Kipchoge is thought to be in his mid 40s by idiots. Only idiots would believe it.

I agree. He's at least in his mid 50's or older.

Phantasy Star wrote:

Does anyone know what (nearly) two decades of EPO does to the human body?

It fries your brain, and makes you post a lot of ignorant things on the internet.

EPO is not a marathon PED, though even Canova doesn't seem to understand why and always misexplains it. Very simply, you aren't working hard enough for having extra RBC's to matter.

It might help stave off training-induced anemia, but that's about it. More helpful would be anabolics to handle high volume and metabolic manipulators to handle extreme low body fat/weight without going into low-energy mode.

Bad Wigins wrote:

EPO is not a marathon PED, though even Canova doesn't seem to understand why and always misexplains it. Very simply, you aren't working hard enough for having extra RBC's to matter.

It might help stave off training-induced anemia, but that's about it. More helpful would be anabolics to handle high volume and metabolic manipulators to handle extreme low body fat/weight without going into low-energy mode.

Moron...you have never run a marathon at a high level if you think "you aren't working hard enough" in a marathon for EPO to matter. Educate yourself. Anything that helps you in a 5000m would help you in a marathon.

Bad Wigins wrote:

EPO is not a marathon PED, though even Canova doesn't seem to understand why and always misexplains it. Very simply, you aren't working hard enough for having extra RBC's to matter.

It might help stave off training-induced anemia, but that's about it. More helpful would be anabolics to handle high volume and metabolic manipulators to handle extreme low body fat/weight without going into low-energy mode.

So what distance does EPO help a runner the most? I always thought 1500-5000 range. Thoughts?

Bad Wigins wrote:

EPO is not a marathon PED, though even Canova doesn't seem to understand why and always misexplains it. Very simply, you aren't working hard enough for having extra RBC's to matter.

It might help stave off training-induced anemia, but that's about it. More helpful would be anabolics to handle high volume and metabolic manipulators to handle extreme low body fat/weight without going into low-energy mode.

I agree that drugs that do the last few things you mentioned would obviously be helpful.

That said, EPO is still going to help. Marathon pace is still 90-95% of threshold, probably closer to 95% for top elites. If you take EPO and raise your VO2 and the percentage of VO2 you can sustain, then that's going to make marathon pace significantly less fatiguing. Simply put, I think we would all expect a 12:15/25:30/54:00 guy to blow Kipchoge's doors off if he has okay efficiency and fatigue resistance.

Coevett wrote:

Beats the two full throttle EPO goats at age 18, which is his track peak, starts to decline at '22' or so, goes into free fall when he should be at his prime and doesn't even qualify for the Kenyan team, then moves to the road and dominates.

Kipchoge's career makes a lot more sense if you assume two quite reasonable things (given confirmed rampant age cheating and doping in Kenya) - that he is 2 or 3 years older than his stated age, and that he has been taking EPO for two decades.

What a stupid comment - even when considering it's coming from a stupid person.

When was this free fall? Coe didn't qualify for the British team on 3 out of 5 occasions, at age 26, 30 and 31. He starts to decline at age 24, same for Cram. Ovett at 22.

Bad Wigins wrote:

EPO is not a marathon PED

It definitely worked on Eddy.

stupidity at it's best wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Beats the two full throttle EPO goats at age 18, which is his track peak, starts to decline at '22' or so, goes into free fall when he should be at his prime and doesn't even qualify for the Kenyan team, then moves to the road and dominates.

Kipchoge's career makes a lot more sense if you assume two quite reasonable things (given confirmed rampant age cheating and doping in Kenya) - that he is 2 or 3 years older than his stated age, and that he has been taking EPO for two decades.

When was this free fall? Coe didn't qualify for the British team on 3 out of 5 occasions, at age 26, 30 and 31. He starts to decline at age 24, same for Cram. Ovett at 22.

At Helsinki 83,Coe was injured.

What are you talking about? I'm stupid to claim that going from an 18 year old world champion beating both EPO GOATs to failing to make the Kenyan team at 25 or whatever represents a real and suspicious decline, yet you're making a serious comment when you say Ovett went into decline in 1977??? And Cram did not decline at 24. He was at his peak in the summer 1985 at 24 knocking on 25. He was getting better every week that season had gone one a few more weeks he might have ran a 3:40 mile for his 25th birthday. From 87 he was suffering injuries again. Even if Cram did 'go into decline' from age 24, it was because of injuries preventing him from getting decent periods of uninterrupted training in, not because he was simply losing his speed with age, as Kipchoge appeared to be. Coe did peak at age 24, but again he was hit by his health problems. If it wasn't for those problems there's no reason not to believe he wouldn't have hit his peak in 82/83. The fact that he came back after ill health and was close to his best again in 84 also suggests that, as well as the fact that he could still run 1:43 and compete at the top at 1500m in an injury free season in 1989. Coe was ranked number 1 in the UK at age 33 for both 800 and 1500 (in 1989). Coe never failed to qualify for a major championships when in good health. Steve Cram was ranked number 1 in the UK at age 33 (in 1993). Ovett set his 1500 pb at nearly 28 and his 5000m pb at 30.

stupidity at it's best wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Beats the two full throttle EPO goats at age 18, which is his track peak, starts to decline at '22' or so, goes into free fall when he should be at his prime and doesn't even qualify for the Kenyan team, then moves to the road and dominates.

Kipchoge's career makes a lot more sense if you assume two quite reasonable things (given confirmed rampant age cheating and doping in Kenya) - that he is 2 or 3 years older than his stated age, and that he has been taking EPO for two decades.

What a stupid comment - even when considering it's coming from a stupid person.

When was this free fall? Coe didn't qualify for the British team on 3 out of 5 occasions, at age 26, 30 and 31. He starts to decline at age 24, same for Cram. Ovett at 22.

LM wrote:

Marathon pace is still 90-95% of threshold, probably closer to 95% for top elites.

2:03 is 29:08 10,000m pace, not a 95% effort for someone with a sub 27 PB. Whatever "threshold" is, if it can't stop them in 27 minutes they're still below it.

In any case, the theory seems to be that adding rbc's will somehow raise your 90% pace and your running will get faster to match? Elite marathoners are practiced at running efficiently to save energy, as the weak point is their nerves and muscles, not their lungs and blood. Look at them when they drop out - are they out of breath, or just tired? The limiting factor is fatigue, not acidosis, and elites are already at the point where adaptations to fatigue are small and incremental. Give them an infusion of rbc's and they could maybe run a lot faster without tying up, but not for the whole distance.

Ovett was at his peak in 78, at age 22. Then starts to decline.

stupidity at it's best wrote:

Ovett was at his peak in 78, at age 22. Then starts to decline.

Coe and Ovett are both obvious dopers.

but only Africans cheat, right? wrote:

stupidity at it's best wrote:

Ovett was at his peak in 78, at age 22. Then starts to decline.

Coe and Ovett are both obvious dopers.

I wouldn't say obvious, but very strong evidence that they are.

stupidity at it's best wrote:

Ovett was at his peak in 78, at age 22. Then starts to decline.

That's why Ovett won this in 86:

Ovett progression:

800:

1989 1:48.18 New Delhi (IND) 20 SEP 1989

1984 1:44.81 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 05 AUG 1984

1983 1:45.25 Bruxelles (BEL) 26 AUG 1983

1982 1:46.08 Viareggio (ITA) 11 AUG 1982

1981 1:46.40 London (GBR) 31 AUG 1981

1980 1:45.40 Moskva (URS) 26 JUL 1980

1979 1:44.91 Köln (GER) 19 AUG 1979

1978 1:44.09 Praha (TCH) 31 AUG 1978

1976 1:45.44 Montreal (CAN) 25 JUL 1976

1975 1:46.09 London (GBR) 02 AUG 1975

1974 1:45.76 Roma (ITA) 04 SEP 1974

1973 1:47.34 London (GBR) 14 JUL 1973

1500:

1989 3:37.40 La Coruna (ESP) 25 JUL 1989

1988 3:36.90 Hengelo (NED) 14 AUG 1988

1987 3:36.43 Koblenz (GER) 13 AUG 1987

1986 3:33.78 Koblenz (GER) 06 AUG 1986

1985 3:37.74 Stockholm (SWE) 02 JUL 1985

1984 3:34.50 Oslo (NOR) 28 JUN 1984

1983 3:30.77 Rieti (ITA) 04 SEP 1983

1982 3:38.48 London (GBR) 07 AUG 1982

1981 3:31.57 Budapest (HUN) 29 JUL 1981

1980 3:31.36 Koblenz (GER) 27 AUG 1980

1979 3:32.11 Bruxelles (BEL) 04 SEP 1979

1978 3:37.56 Malmö (SWE) 26 JUL 1978

1977 3:34.45 Düsseldorf (GER) 03 SEP 1977

1976 3:37.89 Montreal (CAN) 29 JUL 1976

Mile:

1989 3:59.68 London (GBR) 15 SEP 1989

1988 3:58.71 Cork (IRL) 05 JUL 1988

1987 3:57.03 Cork (IRL) 07 JUL 1987

1986 3:52.99 Cork (IRL) 08 JUL 1986

1985 3:55.01 Edinburgh (GBR) 23 JUL 1985

1983 3:50.49 Oslo (NOR) 23 AUG 1983

1981 3:48.40 Koblenz (GER) 26 AUG 1981

1980 3:51.56 Bruxelles (BEL) 22 AUG 1980

1979 3:49.57 London (GBR) 31 AUG 1979

1978 3:57.67 London (GBR) 23 AUG 1978

1977 3:54.69 London (GBR) 26 JUN 1977

3000:

1988 8:05.41 Sevilla (ESP) 01 JUN 1988

1987 7:44.83 Belfast (GBR) 20 JUL 1987

1985 7:49.83 Birmingham (GBR) 07 JUL 1985

1982 7:43.87 Oslo (NOR) 26 JUN 1982

1978 7:48.00 London (GBR) 24 MAY 1978

5000:

1987 13:23.19 La Coruna (ESP) 05 AUG 1987

1986 13:20.06 Belfast (GBR) 30 JUN 1986

1980 13:27.87 London (GBR) 08 AUG 1980

stupidity at it's best wrote:

but only Africans cheat, right? wrote:

Coe and Ovett are both obvious dopers.

I wouldn't say obvious, but very strong evidence that they are.

You mean absolutely zero evidence other than they were as fast as East Africans.

Coevett wrote:

stupidity at it's best wrote:

I wouldn't say obvious, but very strong evidence that they are.

You mean absolutely zero evidence other than they were as fast as East Africans.

No, I mean all of the many reasons which you have listed so often for the East Africans which hold also true for Coe and Ovett. For example the very early decline (starting at 22 for Ovett and 24 for Coe) from this thread.

In Ovett defense wrote:

stupidity at it's best wrote:

Ovett was at his peak in 78, at age 22. Then starts to decline.

That's why Ovett won this in 86:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletics_at_the_1986_Commonwealth_Games_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_5000_metres

You think a win in 86 contradicts the claim his decline started in 78? Have you never learned to use your brain? Try harder.