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Jo72 wrote:

Dr Taboo wrote:

So, explain why Niyonsaba regularly gets beat by XX?

How often did she get beat by an xx between 2016 and 18? twice? three times? By Wilson who is an exceptional talent (and maybe doping).

Certainly not regularly, most of the time Niyonsaba won against everyone but Semenya.

Wambui is the weakest of the three and did get beat with some frequency.

Well, it would appear 3 times in just the last race.

1 5’38’’19 SEMENYA Caster

2 5’38’’66 FEYSA Hawi

3 5’39’’90 ANBESA Adanech

4 5’41’’24 KETEMA Tigist

5 5’43’’43 NIYONSABA Francine

Dr Taboo wrote:

nothings shocking wrote:

I for one am shocked that a XY could win a XX race. It is almost like there is some sort of advantage.

So, explain why Niyonsaba regularly gets beat by XX?

Got to say that's a strange justification.

So unless they're shown to be 100% dominant like a Semenya that means it's ok? Does that also mean it's ok for a substandard bloke to take performance enhancing drugs as long as he doesn't win all all the time?

Black On Blonde wrote:

Dr Taboo wrote:

So, explain why Niyonsaba regularly gets beat by XX?

Got to say that's a strange justification.

So unless they're shown to be 100% dominant like a Semenya that means it's ok? Does that also mean it's ok for a substandard bloke to take performance enhancing drugs as long as he doesn't win all all the time?

So if they are NOT 100% dominant, like Semenya, that means it's OK? I only hear people complaining about Semenya and when I ask why that is, they say it's because she's so dominant. If this is about testosterone, don't we care about EVERYONE that has elevated levels regardless of their performance level? The ones with the strange justifications are the people that "don't care" about Niyonsaba and Wambui because they are not perceived as a threat.

Testosterone is always an issue, because it confers advantage. If this were not so it wouldn't be listed as a performance enhancing drug. Semenya has overshadowed Nyonsaba and Wambui in the debate about testosterone levels not because people don't care about other lesser athletes with male levels of testosterone but because Semenya's defenders have claimed - wrongly - that it is all about her and the supposed injustice done her. It isn't about her. It is about DSD athletes with the unfair advantage of having male levels of testosterone competing as women.

Dr Taboo wrote:

run with the wom wrote:

Because Niyonsaba sucks as a runner no matter the classification.

Oh, I see.

Hmmm, so you'e saying that it's not the testosterone, it's the talent, training and desire?

I hear you saying that merely having high testosterone doesn't guarantee an advantage.

It does if you are a woman.

Dr Taboo wrote:

nothings shocking wrote:

I for one am shocked that a XY could win a XX race. It is almost like there is some sort of advantage.

So, explain why Niyonsaba regularly gets beat by XX?

Define regularly. Obviously the XX in this race could beat a lot of high school boys. So what. They wouldn't have a chance at the average XY State Meet though. There is a lot over overlap between men and women, the problem is always at the ends of the distribution. The fastest XY are roughly 10% better than the fastest XX. Yet there is enough of a distribution that it is possible for an XY to lose to an XX. Shocking I know.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Testosterone is always an issue, because it confers advantage. If this were not so it wouldn't be listed as a performance enhancing drug. Semenya has overshadowed Nyonsaba and Wambui in the debate about testosterone levels not because people don't care about other lesser athletes with male levels of testosterone but because Semenya's defenders have claimed - wrongly - that it is all about her and the supposed injustice done her. It isn't about her. It is about DSD athletes with the unfair advantage of having male levels of testosterone competing as women.

I stopped arguing with you on this because the level of disinformation you are spreading was giving me headaches. I seriously had to stop reading it in fear for my health. I don't know where you get your information from, but 50% of what you say is flat out false. Neither Semenya, nor any other XY DSD person has "male levels of testosterone." Normal testosterone levels in men are around 280 to 1,100 (ng/dL). Normal levels in women are between 15 and 70 (ng/dL). While it could be spun to say that Semenya could have 10 times the amount of testosterone as an XX woman (15ng/dL X 10=150) that still would not be any where near male levels of testosterone, especially the average or upper male levels.

Your issue is that you don't understand DSD. You think that because it's XY it means male. You don't understand how genetic transposition works and as the old saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. To keep insisting that she has male levels of testosterone is a lie. It just isn't true. She doesn't have male levels of testosterone because she is not a male. It's really that simple. I hope one day you finally "get it."

Dr Taboo wrote:

[quote]Armstronglivs wrote:

Neither Semenya, nor any other XY DSD person has "male levels of testosterone." Normal testosterone levels in men are around 280 to 1,100 (ng/dL). Normal levels in women are between 15 and 70 (ng/dL). "

A 2013 paper published in the Journal of clinical Endocrinology and metabolism (JCEM) with a lead author of Patrick Fenichel documents results from 4 athletes with five alpha reductase type 2 deficiency (5-ARD) and their T levels range from 520 to 640 ng/dL (the actual results are in ng/ml but it is easy to convert). These levels are right in the middle of the male range. Semenya's T levels are not public knowledge, but it would not be unreasonable to suggest that she likely has T in the male range.

tgirl wrote:

Dr Taboo wrote:

[quote]Armstronglivs wrote:

Neither Semenya, nor any other XY DSD person has "male levels of testosterone." Normal testosterone levels in men are around 280 to 1,100 (ng/dL). Normal levels in women are between 15 and 70 (ng/dL). "

A 2013 paper published in the Journal of clinical Endocrinology and metabolism (JCEM) with a lead author of Patrick Fenichel documents results from 4 athletes with five alpha reductase type 2 deficiency (5-ARD) and their T levels range from 520 to 640 ng/dL (the actual results are in ng/ml but it is easy to convert). These levels are right in the middle of the male range. Semenya's T levels are not public knowledge, but it would not be unreasonable to suggest that she likely has T in the male range.

Another wannabe endocrinologists trying to substitute Google search for a medical license. 5-alpha reductase deficiency is NOT the same as 46, XY DSD (Swyer Syndrome), which is what Semenya has. 5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty and there is no question that they are male, given their external male genitalia. They are true XY chromosomes with no transposition and will obviously have higher testosterone than someone with Swyer Syndrome, which is very different. People with Swyer syndrome generally have typical female external genitalia and may have internal testes, but do not produce testosterone any where near the levels of someone with 5-alpha reductase deficiency or a non-DSD XY male.

Please stop posting about tissues you are unqualified to address or understand.

the Ban should be 200m to 10k . let her run the marathon only in XX women races .

Dr Taboo wrote:

run with the wom wrote:

Because Niyonsaba sucks as a runner no matter the classification.

Oh, I see.

Hmmm, so you'e saying that it's not the testosterone, it's the talent, training and desire?

I hear you saying that merely having high testosterone doesn't guarantee an advantage.

No, it's the testosterone. She still has an advantage, and would likely be worse without the extra testosterone. She doesn't have to win every single race to have an advantage.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Dr Taboo wrote:

Oh, I see.

Hmmm, so you'e saying that it's not the testosterone, it's the talent, training and desire?

I hear you saying that merely having high testosterone doesn't guarantee an advantage.

No, it's the testosterone. She still has an advantage, and would likely be worse without the extra testosterone. She doesn't have to win every single race to have an advantage.

Like most things in life it is multivariable. Testosterone is important, maybe the most important, but not the only variable. Otherwise the East Germans would’ve put up women’s records approaching the Men’s. They didn’t.

rojo wrote:

Niyonsaba is also in the race. SHe's dead last.

I see what you did there.

You're wrong. As usual.

rojo makes a funny wrote:

rojo wrote:

Niyonsaba is also in the race. SHe's dead last.

I see what you did there.

Well, wejo doesn't allow us to call hermaphrodites "he", so...

Tranny beat the dopers. Track is a joke.

Armstronglivs wrote:

You're wrong. As usual.

That is the precise length your response should be that is commensurate with your knowledge of this subject.

Bravo!

Dr Taboo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You're wrong. As usual.

That is the precise length your response should be that is commensurate with your knowledge of this subject.

Bravo!

>all that purple prose

oof yikes that ain't it chief

Dr Taboo wrote:

[quote]tgirl wrote:

[quote]Dr Taboo wrote:

5-alpha reductase deficiency is NOT the same as 46, XY DSD (Swyer Syndrome), which is what Semenya has. .

5-ARD is a 46,XY DSD. It is the first 46,XY DSD listed in the IAAF DSD policy. Semenya’s specific DSD is not public knowledge, and hence your claim that she has Swyer Syndrome is quite unlikely.

Posting often and being rude does not make you right.