Are we allowed to mention that Jenny Simpson used to have a different name that she competed under?
Are we allowed to mention that Jenny Simpson used to have a different name that she competed under?
What's the problem with asking permission before publishing?
Also I want to point out the choice of photos by lets run.... look at this story and CeCe looks MUCH more feminine than in the photo chosen by letsrun...
https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field
Getting married is NOT the same thing as going through a transition to your real gender.
wow didn't realize letsrun was full of morons who can't read...
If you read my question, it had nothing to do with gender.
I am genuinely confused.
Someone born female but with some male characteristics can't compete as a woman but someone born as a man, who has competed as a man, can now compete as a woman?
I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong but a massive debate with all sorts of facets - biological, cultural, ethical, legal - has been started here. I don't think we have heard the last of this by any stretch of the imaginatioin.
northeast female runner wrote:
What's the problem with asking permission before publishing?
Also I want to point out the choice of photos by lets run.... look at this story and CeCe looks MUCH more feminine than in the photo chosen by letsrun...
https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field
I thought the argument about the inclusion of DSD, intersexual, and trans athletes is that we shouldnt judge what is female by appearances.
It's still quite simple. Ce ce identifies with being a woman. Each to their own, as they say. But she was born male and has the body of a man, not a woman. There is no level-playing ground between men's and women's sports. So how does her being physically male fit with women's sports? And how can her competing as a woman possibly be fair to women who are born female?
rojo wrote:
A tipster sent us this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLfUjrUO_7w&feature=youtu.beCeCe Telfer, who was born as a man, but now competes as a woman is #2 at the NCAA 2 level in the 100h.
When I watch it, it reminds me very much of one thing that even hormone treatments don't impact - height. It's a huge advantage to be much taller in a hurdles race.
Update: Some more thoughts.
So what I'm confused about is why if she's on hormones her times this year aren't any slower than what she ran as a man.
Below you will see a comparison of her PBs as a man and woman.
Man Woman
55 7.01 7.02
60 7.67 7.63
100 12.17 (-1.2) 12.24 (0.6)
200 24.03 24.30 (-3.9)
400 55.77 54.41
55H 7.98 7.91
60H 8.52 8.33
Can someone explain this? Is she just way more motivated as she can now clean up or is something amiss with the hormone treatment? Normally there is a giant drop in performance.
How do her fellow competitors feel about the competition?
I mean it's kind of laughable right. Last year, she was a very poor athlete on the men's team. Now she's #2 on the NCAA on the women's team.
Update #2: She has won the NCAA II title in the 400h. We've merged two threads into one. LRC's article on her win is here:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-an-athlete-who-ran-ncaa-track-as-a-man-for-3-years-just-won-an-ncaa-womens-title/Previous messageboard debate are here:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9148806
Haha.....tipster.
The gun went off and I was like, "yep there, she.....err, he is!"
Did the NCAA clarify the testosterone suppression policy on Wednesday? My thought is if Craig quit the team in January and CeCe returned in October then there would not have been any NCAA monitoring even if there was a so called policy. I've know some Male-female trans and they have said the testosterone suppression doesn't feel that great- one mentioned that is why older middle aged men seek testosterone treatment.
We've enthusiastically opened Pandora's Box - the lid will never be closed. The number of transgender persons and transgender aspirants is increasing exponentially. If you've been to a millennial wedding ceremony (in a blue state) recently you probably know exactly what I'm talking about.
Taught history wrote:
If your question is serious and not simply rhetorical, the answer is that I would be honored to be the guy who defends this Coach’s right to make the statements that he made, because I believe in the First Amendment. (Alas, I am not licensed to practice Law in New York.) I would prefer that such a defense not be unnecessary, because the school where he coaches will respect and defend his rights.
I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would ever be asked to defend slavery, and I cannot think of anything I could say in its defense, but FYI once saw a profile of a young black attorney from the ACLU defending the Ku Klux Klan’s right to hold a rally! He said he was honored to do it because he believed in the First Amendment. (Guy’s been my hero/role model for 30 years.)
Now back to your latest attack:
You do realize, of course, that there is absolutely nothing in the EEOC regulations you cite that even mentions transgender persons?
Surely you are intelligent enough to also realize that the 1st Amendment’s protection of the right to free speech would prevail over an EEOC regulation, (if there were one that said what you made up) as long as the statement at issue was a comment about a matter of public concern. You did learn that the Constitution is the highest law of the land, didn’t you?
Try to stay with me on this: The matter of public concern that is the point of contention here is not whether person who is 46XY but identifies as a women can force society to call them a woman, it’s whether it is fair to allow them to compete against 46XX women. While you persist in nitpicking every word I write, the rest of the posters on this thread have been engaging in a robust debate over that point. To restate what I said above, I sincerely hope Coach Emerson does not get away with his assault on the First Amendment rights of the Coach who dared to voice his opinion on the issue. I resign myself to the fact that I will not be able to enlist your support in that fight, but hope as a result of your through rigorous scrutiny the righteousness of my cause has been made clear. Good luck to you, too, in your sincere quest to impose political correctness at the expense of both robust debate and fair competition.
You are so unbelievably full of crap to accuse Coach Emerson of "assault" on the first amendment. He's no more guilty of assaulting the first amendment than the guy in a movie theater who tells someone to be quiet during the movie.
He's defending his athlete while you are defending discrimination and bigotry.
Do you knw what discrimination is? It means to make decisions based on some criteria. I assume that you meant illegal discrimination which prohibits decisions based on race, gender, age, etc. But discriminating based on things such as experience or skill is not only acceptable but prudent. As far as illegal discrimination, I am very surprised that separate categories continue to exist based on gender because that is one of the illegal prohibitions. If you are in sales, you get paid based on the amount of sales you make regardless of your gender. If you run 14:30 in a 5k race as a male, you get paid significantly less than a comparable woman. How can this be legal? It won't be for much longer. With these few men switching genders and competing as women, they are earning scholarships for performances that are far below those of male competitors.
Discriminator wrote:
Do you knw what discrimination is? It means to make decisions based on some criteria. I assume that you meant illegal discrimination which prohibits decisions based on race, gender, age, etc. But discriminating based on things such as experience or skill is not only acceptable but prudent. As far as illegal discrimination, I am very surprised that separate categories continue to exist based on gender because that is one of the illegal prohibitions. If you are in sales, you get paid based on the amount of sales you make regardless of your gender. If you run 14:30 in a 5k race as a male, you get paid significantly less than a comparable woman. How can this be legal? It won't be for much longer. With these few men switching genders and competing as women, they are earning scholarships for performances that are far below those of male competitors.
Here is what people don't understand - if the FPU coach were to tell that athlete no you cannot compete on the women's team that would have been illegal discrimination. The NCAA allows transgender athletes to compete in the gender they identify as, if he said no it would have been gender discrimination.
It's no different than if a coach were to kick an athlete off the team for being gay, or black. Everyone agrees that would be discrimination.
Nobody here should be upset with the athlete for following the rules, and nobody should be upset with the coach for
supporting the athlete. Be mad at the NCAA for allowing it if you disagree. The NCAA is even bragging about it. Your gripe is with the NCAA, not athlete or her coach so please stop insulting the athlete and her coach.
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is right. If my friend had an abortion, I would be upset with her. If my employer shipped my job to Mexico, I would be upset with them. If my spendthrift brother filed for bankruptcy, I would be upset with him. If a guy legally competes in a women's race, I can be upset with him/her. I can also be upset with the NCAA.
Here's a thought exercise for you: Suppose the athlete at issue were Caster Semenya, instead of CeCe Telfer, and you stated that the IAAF rules which prohibit her from running the 400, 800 and 1500 meters without testosterone suppression were discriminatory, and your employer fired you for saying it. A lawyer who believes in the First Amendment would be just as honored to defend you against your employer's assault on your constitutional right to free speech as we would be to defend the coach against Coach Emerson's.
According to you, we are full of crap only when we defend the right of people to express opinions on the other side of the issue than yours.
Your position can be easily restated as "Freedom of speech for me, but not for thee."
This transgender woman here is honorable. I commend Anne VEriato. Her rationale for competing against men is that she feels her background as a man gave her an advantage:
I think they should allow extra scholarship slots at the colleges for cisgender girls for each spot on the team taken by a transgender girl.
I adopted a rescue deer that I'm raising and training to run the 100 meters. The deer identifies as a human. I identify as the parent of a transpecies-deer-human. I plan to enter him into the olympics and be the proud parent of the next WR holder and Gold medalist. Move over Bolt, a new man is in town.
You are not allowed to think me or my deer son (who I named Adam Goucher btw) are anything other than our preferred species identity. My son Adam identifies as deer-man-son, and I identify as deer-man-dad. My son Adam also has a learning disability and speech impediment so his rights are protected by the ADA act. If you disagree with me, I will report you to the authorities for hate speech and demand that the Brojos delete your posts.
If the IAAF tries to block Adam's entrance into international competition, I will apply for arbitration with the CAS court. They need to be inclusive and tolerant of marginalized victim groups. And the IAAF doesn't have any scientific data that hoofs provide any athletic advantage in the 100 meters.
Lastly, my SON was labelled by a close minded bigot Doctor at birth as a Doe. Doesn't this doctor know that not all Bucks have a penis? It's so infuriating! That Doctor needs to go back to veterinary school.
northeast female runner wrote:
What's the problem with asking permission before publishing?
Also I want to point out the choice of photos by lets run.... look at this story and CeCe looks MUCH more feminine than in the photo chosen by letsrun...
https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field
In the photo in that article, I see a man with long hair who is wearing a stuffed bra. What in the world are you seeing that is feminine? Or are you trolling? Honestly, I'm more confused by your state of mind than by CeCe's real gender.
To be fair, some cisgender black women look way more masculine than Cece.
I’m a D2 female runner. Our coach explicitly told us not to visit LetsRun forums.
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