My Semenya article has gone viral worldwide, Ill be on BBC 5 live to talk about it at 11:30 london time (6:30 US)

She is a man wrote:

intersex wrote:

Which is why he will fail. Rather than target science to justify something, he is targeting the performance of an individual because he doesn't have the science to back him up.

Checkmate.

Are you claiming you have personal experience inspecting Semenya's private parts? Even if you did, there is no guarantee you got it right. (There are XY males born without penises, believe it or not).

trollism wrote:

Think Nolan was on your side there though, he seemed a bit annoyed with her.

I think he was just trying to push the conversation forward.

But all intersex disorders are either male or female. 46,XY with a SRY gene and high androgen uptake is basically a male with a hormone problem. The fact that she was (reportedly) brought up as a female and (reportedly) identifies as a female is completely irrelevant.

Semenya can still run with the men and be a midpacker with limited talent like the rest of us, she has no actual right to hoover up the easy money and medals on the women's circuit just because she was mistakenly allowed to for a decade.

You seem to have wondered out into some unrelated discussion of women & reproductive ability.

In the track world, the issue is about athletic performance, not reproductive ability, and in the specific IAAF & CAS discussion, the issue is about testosterone's affect upon performance, not reproductive ability.

To be clear, whether or not a person can reproduce, or how their equipment affects their sexual life, or what their sexual life is, has probably nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion.

did he have a dong?

Hardloper wrote:

BergLaufer wrote:

Congrats rojo!

+1

+1.

Please send a youtube link if/when you get one.

trollism wrote:

You did well there, helped that the lady was talking a load of highly accented nonsense.

Her point ended up being, she's spent her whole life as a woman so you can't say that she's not now, even if she's not.

That's basically the wider public perception though. You need to remember that pretty much no one who will wade into this on social media will have much of an interest in athletics whatsoever much less any interest in the scientific rational behind the ruling.

That's why I thought rojo did well on appealing on the emotional basis of the "greater good" and the larger percentage of women missing out. That's the winning argument. People who aren't really focused on athletics but get drawn in when this gets on the news will respond to that. Bring up Bruce Jenner not so much.

Should also have countered with Radcliffe, Sharon Davis, etc when that woman claimed it was just men in the IAAF who wanted the ruling in place. Lyndsey Sharp was a bad choice as - rightly or wrongly - she's viewed as toxic now.

Yeah, good point. Sharron Davies would have been a good choice, everyone loves her. (well besides Rachel McKinnon and her lot)

trollism wrote:

But all intersex disorders are either male or female. 46,XY with a SRY gene and high androgen uptake is basically a male with a hormone problem. The fact that she was (reportedly) brought up as a female and (reportedly) identifies as a female is completely irrelevant.

Nope. You are wrong about that. You seem to be completely unaware of the large number of sex "adjustments" made by doctors to babies in the past. Oops, the baby is not clearly male or female, or cosmetic surgery is a must. That still happens to this day, but there are some parents who are deciding not to mutilate their baby's genitalia, against their doctor's wishes, so that their baby is more "normal."

ummmmm8 wrote:

You seem to have wondered out into some unrelated discussion of women & reproductive ability.

In the track world, the issue is about athletic performance, not reproductive ability...

That was as far as I needed to read to know you are clueless about the effects of running on women.

intersex wrote:

trollism wrote:

But all intersex disorders are either male or female. 46,XY with a SRY gene and high androgen uptake is basically a male with a hormone problem. The fact that she was (reportedly) brought up as a female and (reportedly) identifies as a female is completely irrelevant.

Nope. You are wrong about that. You seem to be completely unaware of the large number of sex "adjustments" made by doctors to babies in the past. Oops, the baby is not clearly male or female, or cosmetic surgery is a must. That still happens to this day, but there are some parents who are deciding not to mutilate their baby's genitalia, against their doctor's wishes, so that their baby is more "normal."

You seem hung up about genitalia, which in cases like this is largely irrelevant.

What's relevant is the XY chromosomes and the SRY gene, which meant Semenya went through a full male puberty like any other XY male and produces and responds to testosterone more or less as well as any XY male. The ambiguous genitalia at birth is neither here nor there.

Not a feminist or anything, but it seems insane to me that feminist would want men to crush and dominate women's athletics. Such a strange world we are living in.

trollism wrote:

But all intersex disorders are either male or female. 46,XY with a SRY gene and high androgen uptake is basically a male with a hormone problem.

No.

A 46, XY disorder of sex development (DSD) is a condition in which an individual with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell, the pattern normally found in males, have genitalia that is not clearly male or female. Infants with this condition tend to have penoscrotal hypospadias, abnormal development of the testes, and reduced to no sperm production. Some individuals with 46, XY DSD have fully to underdeveloped female reproductive organs (e.g., uterus and fallopian tubes), while others do not. *

* Ostrer H. 46,XY Disorder of Sex Development and 46,XY Complete Gonadal Dysgenesis. In: Pagon RA, Bird TD, Dolan CR, Stephens K, Adam MP, editors. GeneReviews™ [Internet]. Seattle (WA): University of Washington, Seattle: 1993-2008 May 21 [updated 2009 Sep 15].

intersex wrote:

Are you claiming you have personal experience inspecting Semenya's private parts? Even if you did, there is no guarantee you got it right. (There are XY males born without penises, believe it or not).

Correct, and Semenya is one of them.

It is refreshing to read, especially so when there's objective journalism involved.

*The Jama Aden case is coming up. Your credentials, please use and ask the questions. The sport needs this Integrity needs this. When you show up in/outside the courtroom with your press pass please keep in mind all of the givens, if anything a Dumpster filled epo syringes directly outside of his room.

I don't mean to detract from your good work on CAS/CS but to use this as a step to greater good.

trollism wrote:

You seem hung up about genitalia, which in cases like this is largely irrelevant.

While you are entirely hung up on exterior appearance.

Cul De Sac wrote:

intersex wrote:

Are you claiming you have personal experience inspecting Semenya's private parts? Even if you did, there is no guarantee you got it right. (There are XY males born without penises, believe it or not).

Correct, and Semenya is one of them.

Nope.

You can be XY and essentially female if there isn't a SRY gene. Likely to have CAIS and won't go through a male puberty and can have a female phenotype.

Semenya on the other hand clearly has a SRY gene and clearly has PAIS but only at a certain level, if, as the lady said that sex is on a spectrum, this is very close to the male end.

intersex wrote:

trollism wrote:

You seem hung up about genitalia, which in cases like this is largely irrelevant.

While you are entirely hung up on exterior appearance.

You actually haven't taken any notice of anything I've said. You've got your argument and you're going to make it against anyone regardless of what points they're actually making.

I haven't even mentioned her exterior appearance.