CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY SEMENYA CAN RUN 5K AND 10K WITH HIGH TESTOSTERONE?

WEHYWERHWERW wrote:

Why would she be allowed to run longer distances without suppressing her levels? Surely testosterone is advantageous for longer distances as well?

Actually, I'm not sure the extra testosterone is quite as advantageous for longer distances.

The steroid+EPO-boosted Russian women were super strong in the 400m, 800m and 1500m - the testing-optional Russian Championships from 10-15 years ago usually produced a stunning number of fast times from unknown athletes - but in the 5000m and 10000m the Russian women were more in the "competitive for Europeans" category.

Men should never be allowed to compete in women's events, regardless of what they call themselves.

data based rules wrote:

What's Going On Here? wrote:

So, if Semenya developes the endurance and starts dominating the 5000, then the IAAF steps in and makes her take hormone suppression meds like the requirement for her in the 8 & 15?

As stated above, the IAAF had studies and data to support their rule on testosterone limitations on the women's mid-distance events. They did not have similar data for races above 1500M and were rightfully concerned that if they made their rule cover all women's events without supporting data, that the CAS would throw out the rule. I would expect that as soon as they can acquire data to support what anyone with common sense and a little bit of biology knowledge already knows, they will expand the rule to all women's events.

The science is unconvincing. The IAAF's focus on power events was a ruse to "improve" the quality of the evidence before CAS. It has, however, highlighted that Semenya was the target.

HighT wrote:

Think about your average talented but not elite high school athlete. What event are they closest to a women's professional level? How many good swimmers or soccer players have you seen show up for track with minimal experience and run 2-flat 800 by the end of the season? Now how many have you seen run 14:30 for 5k?

Testosterone certainly provides an advantage in other distances, it just seems to be maximized relative to other factors in the mid-distance events.

Interesting post. Too bad women weren’t allowed to run anything over 800m at the time East German women on testosterone PEDs were dominating with 47” 400m and 1’53” 800m. With a much larger pool of women on testosterone PEDs than the number of transgenders, it would have been interesting to see what they would have achieved on the 5’000/10’000m.

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:

Good question.

T for females is supposedly performance enhancing at longer distances.

That's why this decision doesn't make sense. ?

Because he's not that good.

LawrenceCH wrote:

HighT wrote:

Think about your average talented but not elite high school athlete. What event are they closest to a women's professional level? How many good swimmers or soccer players have you seen show up for track with minimal experience and run 2-flat 800 by the end of the season? Now how many have you seen run 14:30 for 5k?

Testosterone certainly provides an advantage in other distances, it just seems to be maximized relative to other factors in the mid-distance events.

Interesting post. Too bad women weren’t allowed to run anything over 800m at the time East German women on testosterone PEDs were dominating with 47” 400m and 1’53” 800m. With a much larger pool of women on testosterone PEDs than the number of transgenders, it would have been interesting to see what they would have achieved on the 5’000/10’000m.

Just ask Junxia Wang and all the other Chinese woman that in the early 1990's set WR from 1500...10,000m

Not sure she'll have the guts to train for the longer races. She has a massive advantage at 800, but could a high school boy 800 runner around 1:57 step up and race these 14:30 5000 women?

Going by this logic, and based on Caster's 400-1500 range -50.00-4.00, she would have potential to run 14.30-14.40, if she focused on mileage and different training.

She might be competitive in.slower ran 5000 champs. races, but not in races where Ayana type girls run 14.11-14.20 pace.

Ghost in China

She would also have to change her body type to become more ectomorphic, through I.F. intermittent fasting, and heavy reduction in carbs, a la Chris Froome, who went 76kg down to 66kg...to dominate TDF.

I believe, once again, that a slimmed down Semenya could be a factor at 5k, in slower type races, but her limit might be 14.25-14.30. She has the physiology to do that.

Doing repeat 1000s in 2.50 -2.55 should be possible for her in training, with 1.20-1.30 rest.

This is all conjecture but possible, esp. as C.S. has stated she will not suppress her natural T levels.

LawrenceCH wrote:

HighT wrote:

Think about your average talented but not elite high school athlete. What event are they closest to a women's professional level? How many good swimmers or soccer players have you seen show up for track with minimal experience and run 2-flat 800 by the end of the season? Now how many have you seen run 14:30 for 5k?

Testosterone certainly provides an advantage in other distances, it just seems to be maximized relative to other factors in the mid-distance events.

Interesting post. Too bad women weren’t allowed to run anything over 800m at the time East German women on testosterone PEDs were dominating with 47” 400m and 1’53” 800m. With a much larger pool of women on testosterone PEDs than the number of transgenders, it would have been interesting to see what they would have achieved on the 5’000/10’000m.

You are thinking in the right direction but ultimately incorrect. Young men (and women) perform better (relative to the WR) the shorter the distance is. Why? Because endurance takes many miles and years to develop whereas speed is more inborn and requires less training to reach the same level of performance. Example: a high school male just ran a 9.98 100m but don't hold your breath waiting for an equivelant 5000m (13:10) from a high schooler.

To prove that testosterone affects male performance equally at any distance, look at the performance difference between every distances' WR, male and female. You will find the men's WR to all be 10-12% faster, with no trend as distance gets shorter or longer.

WEHYWERHWERW wrote:

Why would she be allowed to run longer distances without suppressing her levels? Surely testosterone is advantageous for longer distances as well?

The IAFF only banned her due to a PR problem they don't care about fairness or integrity of sport. If an obviously XY athlete was dominating the women 5000 they would create a ban for that distance as well. The image of the muscular Semenya dominating the womens 800m was the IAFF's problem.

I think she should not be allowed to compete in the women's 800m without hormone therapy. But the ban should apply to all events.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

WEHYWERHWERW wrote:

Why would she be allowed to run longer distances without suppressing her levels? Surely testosterone is advantageous for longer distances as well?

The IAFF only banned her due to a PR problem they don't care about fairness or integrity of sport. If an obviously XY athlete was dominating the women 5000 they would create a ban for that distance as well. The image of the muscular Semenya dominating the womens 800m was the IAFF's problem.

I think she should not be allowed to compete in the women's 800m without hormone therapy. But the ban should apply to all events.

This is spot on. The issue is about optics mostly. Semenya was a problem bse she looks more masculine than a big %age of men. She was a problem from the get go. Even before 'gender verification' tests. The first impression pple get when they see her line up against women for race is hang on, what's that man doing there? There are other women athletes in the same event, both currently competing and retired suspected to hv similar anatomical set up, but they are not as prominently male looking as Semenya. In hindsight, the South Africans can complain now, but surely even they must hv had some soul searching about the gender identity of their newly found athletic gem. That's the main issue. Why have they finally moved to get her out now, may be its bse of the accumulated data like some pple are saying. But there is another reason....Medals mean a lot to some powerful countries. With Semenya there, the path to the 800m gold medal was blocked for the foreseeable future. With her out of the way, there are now one or two athletes from powerful countries who are poised to be the biggest beneficiary. In fact celebrations have already been launched in anticipation even on this forum. This is a targetted ban. The issue doesn't seem to be the XY make up or high T levels, but where these are affecting the results where this is currently known. Probably if someone in the same situation starts dominating the throws and jumps, then they will also head there and ban them. So advice to Semenyas out there, dont dominate. Win some, lose some. Then everything will be alright.

I think it's worth noting that, while a higher T-level should theoretically be an advantage at any distance, the fact of the matter is that in the relatively brief time that this has been an issue, all the actual individual runners who have been at the heart of the controversy have been 800m runners. Not sprinters, not marathoners: only 800m runners. Granted, it's a small sample size, but it just seems unlikely to be pure coincidence that there were 3 Olympic track medalists that I'm aware of from 2016 whose gender was questionable, and they were all in the 800m. Granted, this doesn't address the OP's question, but perhaps the thinking is that, we don't know that much about how to approach this thorny issue, so let's only address the areas where it's actually having an effect.

The science is unconvincing.

If only we had more than a handful of runners born as XY. We could compare them to the XX population.

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:

Good question.

T for females is supposedly performance enhancing at longer distances.

That's why this decision doesn't make sense. ?

That's because the powers that be won't have to show her on TV - no 5/10 events at Diamond League meets. They won't care if she runs people over. However, Semenya is too big for the 5k, even the 3k is too long. Unfortunately, we're going to see others with similar conditions (if it isn't going on already) jumping into these events.

The IAAF is too afraid to define a woman as xx, so they use T levels. Total bs and pc gone crazy.

loki wrote:

This case gets more insane by the minute. So if you have increased male hormones and male development for decades it will only help you at the shorter distances. Total genius move by the IAAF. Does anyone wonder why track is a complete joke? These are the idiots guiding the sport. Just like when the IAAF stated The blades that the blade runner used provided no advantage. Next you can identify as a clean athlete and that makes you exempt of testing and pardons you of past PED use. Put lance back on the podium if he identifies as a clean athlete. Total crackers! Our leaders are devoid of logic.

Actually, yes. Testosterone provides a greater advantage for shorter distances because speed correlates better with strength / muscle mass, than distance does.

The joke about low T distance runners has a grain of truth when you compare 400m runner physiques to those of marathoners.

Ryan Hall famously ran with lower than average T.