Caster Semenya Loses Appeal

This is a great compromise; had the IAAF not relented on the 5,000 meters and up, giving DSDs a continued chance to compete unaltered, they likely would have lost the appeal.

I'm not even that concerned over the hesitancy of excluding the 1500 m because it will undoubtedly eliminate championship jog and sprint finals due to the fear of being outkicked.

The 1500m will be must watch TV this year if Semenya moves up unaltered. I don't think any of the women racing 5000 m would have much to worry about but the 1500 m really feels like cisgenders would have a fighting chance against a well trained DSD.

“Woman”, “man”, etc have different meanings to different people, and when used in different contexts.

For purposes of this decision, T level is the defining factor in the stated race distances. It literally defines whether Semenya will be permitted to compete in the “women’s” category, or in the “men’s” category. For the purpose of determining competition, it will be decided by the IAAF whether Semenya is a man or a woman.

I have a different, and greater purpose than the IAAF. The IAAF’s purpose is to ensure fair competition, within the bounds of what is legally, financially, and administratively acceptable and possible. Notice that the decision has boilerplate and that it uses strict legal tests and terms of art.

My purpose is to advocate for fair competition, and I am bound by only moral, and not practical, legal, or administrative constraints. I go beyond the IAAF in that I believe that if someone developed as a male, they should not be allowed to compete against women regardless of their T level—and correspondingly, that anybody who developed as a female should be able to compete against women if they have a typically female T value.

Further than that, I put the onus on the individual to self-select out of a sense of moral duty, a concept that the IAAF has chosen not to pursue.

Semenya may self-identify in life as a female, as a woman, as a martian, as whatever—but I don’t respect his wish that others consider him thusly in whatever context suits his convenience. The IAAF, CAS, etc agree with me, when it comes to the determination of competition based on T level. They take no position otherwise.

I do. There is absolutely no reason why I should respect Semenya’s self-serving wishes in this matter. He can self-identify as whatever he wants, and I, in turn, can identify him as anything I want. Seeing what I have seen of how Semenya lives, it is entirely possible that my motivation is purer than is Semenya’s, because my only interest is to ensure fair competitive opportunities for others—I have no direct personal stake in this whatsoever, unlike Semenya.

While he may consider it personally insulting (and certainly inconvenient) to be referred to as a “he” in the track context, it is insulting (and certainly inconvenient) to others that Semenya asks/expects to be referred to as a “she” in that same track context. There is no good reason to elevate Semenya’s wishes above those of others, and there is IMO good reason not to.

Semenya is not the victim here, Semenya is the perp, and knows it. With the temporary assistance of a slow-moving and uncertain bureaucracy, he has exploited those weaker than himself for personal gain and glory. Based on his track-related actions, Semenya’s gender-identification wishes deserve no respect.

Somebody get this guy outta here please

Why, because he's speaking the truth?

Noticer of non-meme thread titles wrote:

OP, I corrected your thread title above. Your welcome, moran.

If you are going to call somebody out at least spell moron right you Moron!

ChunkNorris wrote:

Noticer of non-meme thread titles wrote:

OP, I corrected your thread title above. Your welcome, moran.

If you are going to call somebody out at least spell moron right you Moron!

Say “hi” to the new guy, everyone!

Jefe in the CO wrote:

This is a great compromise; had the IAAF not relented on the 5,000 meters and up, giving DSDs a continued chance to compete unaltered, they likely would have lost the appeal.

I'm not even that concerned over the hesitancy of excluding the 1500 m because it will undoubtedly eliminate championship jog and sprint finals due to the fear of being outkicked.

The 1500m will be must watch TV this year if Semenya moves up unaltered. I don't think any of the women racing 5000 m would have much to worry about but the 1500 m really feels like cisgenders would have a fighting chance against a well trained DSD.

But can the IAAF still decide on their own about the the 1500m? Is this not only a soft suggestion by CAS? I am not sure if I understand the character of this recommendation. I don't think unaltered Semenya would be a great danger in a 3:56-57 race but in everything slower than ca. 4:00 she certainly will be as was proved in London 2017.

In the 5k even 15:00 for Semenya (a tremendous improvement over what she raced so far) would be far away from the top. But I think that in the long run one has to deal with DSD/Intersex in all events in a similar fashion. What if another, smaller and leaner DSD person appears and does run 14:10 in the 5k in several years time? What about the field events and sprints where in all likelhood high T would give a great advantage (as clear from the time of steroid doping, especially in the Eastern bloc)?

Greetings new guy!

ByeBye wrote:

Bye Dolph Schippers!

Its "Dafny" and you leave her alone.

Jo72 wrote:

But can the IAAF still decide on their own about the the 1500m? Is this not only a soft suggestion by CAS? I am not sure if I understand the character of this recommendation.

But I think that in the long run one has to deal with DSD/Intersex in all events in a similar fashion. What if another, smaller and leaner DSD person appears and does run 14:10 in the 5k in several years time? What about the field events and sprints where in all likelhood high T would give a great advantage (as clear from the time of steroid doping, especially in the Eastern bloc)?

Did you read the research paper underlying the decision? It does not appear that you are familiar with that document. I posted the abstract above.

ChunkNorris wrote:

Noticer of non-meme thread titles wrote:

OP, I corrected your thread title above. Your welcome, moran.

If you are going to call somebody out at least spell moron right you Moron!

Uh-oh, maybe we should discus why he spelled it moron for the newbie

She may have a hard time in getting to world record levels in the 5000 or 1500, however, this would probably guarantee that there were no more "strategic, championship style" races.

If she is in the race, the pace would have to be fast, or she wins.

Also, can she hurdle?

She is tall and the 3000SC barriers are shorter for the women.

This may even be a better option.

Did you...did you just wrote:

ChunkNorris wrote:

If you are going to call somebody out at least spell moron right you Moron!

Uh-oh, maybe we should discus why he spelled it moron for the newbie

Damn it I did it too

Since they are so concerned with testosterone i wish they would maybe get rid of some of these Eastern European world records that no one has come close to

LoneStarXC wrote:

ChunkNorris wrote:

If you are going to call somebody out at least spell moron right you Moron!

Say “hi” to the new guy, everyone!

Ha ha, what a moran!

And to stay topical to the thread I bet he isn't even a real man. If only we had a way of defining that...

I read parts of that paper or at least the general discussion some time ago. That they were unable to show or find clear cases of high T or corresponding advantages in sprints and throws does not prove all that much. (Whereas we have very clear evidence how well testosterone-based doping worked in the 80s.)

Cases like Semenya are obviously very rare. So would be similar cases in other events. Maybe there simply weren't enough (or any) athletes with sufficiently abnormal T levels in the pool they looked at.

And there are of course confounding factors. An abnormally high T person with unfavorable anatomy/levers etc. may not be as extraordinary in some throwing event as one might expect from the T levels.

That's a little ingenuous. Yeah she has 'external genitalia' i.e. an orifice. But she has no internal female organs, and she has testicles. There is a chance that she may not have been born a female at all.

Her testosterone level has been up there at the max male level, which by the way is double the average. Up there with the lifters.

And as for cheats, before this all was brought out in the open, the SA organization - and her - knew she tested out of the range and still headed off into international competition. That's cheating. Nothing short of. Its plain cheating.

Even though I do have sympathy for her condition, I have way greater sympathy for the young ladies who had to race against her.

I feel bad for her but they have to put testosterone thresholds in place because of the trans community and the issues that are arising already with transitioning males who compete in female events.

In her case, she was born this way and so it seems less fair, but the only way for them to govern when they start dealing with men who transition to women, is to have a set Testosterone level those men-turned-women have to get below. They’ll still have advantages though, men’s bones are different, their hips narrower, they have other physiological advantages than simply hormone levels.

Well, if you read that paper, I do not understand why you still have questions. They can only act (and expect to have it upheld by CAS) where there is evidence to support the rule.

You don't have to LIKE that result, but that is why the result is what it is. Your intuition that T should help in other events is not enough to create a rule that will be upheld.