Not a Master:
What did your training look like the last 5 months?
Not a Master:
What did your training look like the last 5 months?
Not a master,
Are you coached by Tinman or is this your own version of the system?
Care to share what your training looks like?
Bump.
yemts wrote:
Not a master,
Are you coached by Tinman or is this your own version of the system?
Care to share what your training looks like?
I am coached by Tinman in that he writes the workouts I have been doing.
The training I have been on is mostly easy running, every day. He emphasizes that this must be 50-90% one's VO2 max with a good amount of work at the lower range (50%) to prevent overloading the system and to properly recover. Strides are on one of the two easy days.
He does not have me doing a structure that I think some of his Elite athletes do (Sam Parsons et al) with a long run on Sunday etc. Instead I am on a 6 day cycle with hard work once every three days, easy running the other days, with strides on one of the days.
He uses minutes instead of miles. He looked at my training history and started a conservative amount of work per week and over the period of a few months gradually has built me up to my biggest load of 7hours and 5 minutes of running a week.
The workouts itself are very nuanced but also in a way simple. He himself has said on the Final Surge podcast, specifically in regard to HS runners, that 15-20 minutes of CV a week is sufficient to build a solid foundation for a distance runner along with short durations of faster paces (Strides, 800m pace, 1 mile pace) and some hills (10s, 30s, 40s) with the shorter hill durations at faster pace (800m effot max). In my own training, he touches on many paces within a week (400m (very occasionally and only after slightly slower paces to warm up), 800m, mile, 2 miles, VO2 Max, 5k, Threshold Tempo, Tempo, Easy).
As with anything, what makes his training so great in the way he progresses all of the work and builds upon things always in a systematic but safe way, not merely the components.
You on strava?
Former Sub-14,
In the thread about Daniels training posted on the previous page, you mentioned that teams loose benefits of tempo running because they do them for too long.
I tend to agree, however, I feel that if you are alternating between longer marathon tempos and shorter tempos you tend to make out a lot better.
That being said, looking at the Melbourne track club training, and many of the great Aussie distance runners in the 80’s and 90’s and 00’s, these guys had a very similar program nearly every week. The MTC squad does 20-30 min tempos/threshold runs nearly every week all year.
Could you talk a bit more on this?
Former Wildcat wrote:
Former Sub-14,
In the thread about Daniels training posted on the previous page, you mentioned that teams loose benefits of tempo running because they do them for too long.
I tend to agree, however, I feel that if you are alternating between longer marathon tempos and shorter tempos you tend to make out a lot better.
That being said, looking at the Melbourne track club training, and many of the great Aussie distance runners in the 80’s and 90’s and 00’s, these guys had a very similar program nearly every week. The MTC squad does 20-30 min tempos/threshold runs nearly every week all year.
Could you talk a bit more on this?
I feel the same as you where you should mix it up a lot. I realize Melbourne does the same thing week-in-week out for the most part. The main thing I get from them is how they touch on speed/threshold all the time and don't deviate too much. Also the fact that their training isn't too fancy. I think they jam in too many workouts throughout the week though (3 + long run that isn't really long). Probably shouldn't have written what I did as it wasn't communicated very well. Tempos obviously have a ton of value but you should still modulate a lot of what you do. Threshold, CV, MP pace, 1/2 M pace, 15k pace, etc. etc. etc. they can all really be lumped in the same bucket as stamina development. I think if you got a whole toolbox full of workouts that can get the job done you should work with the different instruments in there as much as you can to mix training up. There is some nuance in how they effect your aerobic ability and also when/where to use them within a training cycle....but all those are good. So I will retcon what I said back in that thread. No, tempos don't lose value. Although, I feel like mixing things up is really good for an athlete's development.
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
Former Wildcat wrote:
Former Sub-14,
In the thread about Daniels training posted on the previous page, you mentioned that teams loose benefits of tempo running because they do them for too long.
I tend to agree, however, I feel that if you are alternating between longer marathon tempos and shorter tempos you tend to make out a lot better.
That being said, looking at the Melbourne track club training, and many of the great Aussie distance runners in the 80’s and 90’s and 00’s, these guys had a very similar program nearly every week. The MTC squad does 20-30 min tempos/threshold runs nearly every week all year.
Could you talk a bit more on this?
I feel the same as you where you should mix it up a lot. I realize Melbourne does the same thing week-in-week out for the most part. The main thing I get from them is how they touch on speed/threshold all the time and don't deviate too much. Also the fact that their training isn't too fancy. I think they jam in too many workouts throughout the week though (3 + long run that isn't really long). Probably shouldn't have written what I did as it wasn't communicated very well. Tempos obviously have a ton of value but you should still modulate a lot of what you do. Threshold, CV, MP pace, 1/2 M pace, 15k pace, etc. etc. etc. they can all really be lumped in the same bucket as stamina development. I think if you got a whole toolbox full of workouts that can get the job done you should work with the different instruments in there as much as you can to mix training up. There is some nuance in how they effect your aerobic ability and also when/where to use them within a training cycle....but all those are good. So I will retcon what I said back in that thread. No, tempos don't lose value. Although, I feel like mixing things up is really good for an athlete's development.
If we look at the most successful training systems in history, most of them are just a variety of the same theme, running close to VO2max , running LSD and running threshold/tempos. Nothing new under the sun what mainly is important to reach your individual best performance.So dont pretend like it would be some `panacea` with the name `CV`, LoL
I don't disagree with you about the point that many contemporary training plans contain the aforementioned paces.
Nor do I think Tom would say that CV is the panacea to the ailment of poorly structured training. I will say that the specificity of that pace, the 30 minute race pace, and the beneficial effect that it has on the type iix muscle fibers is singular, in that slower or faster paces will not have the exact same effect. Thus, its healthy emphasis (not to the exclusion of VO2 Max, tempo proper, threshold, or pure speed work) goes against the idea of working at exlusively "race" pace (take for example a miler who only did workouts such as 8- 12 * 400m @ race pace) during workouts. It's a variation on the same ingredients (all of the paces used in modern training) but it is a new recipe in that it uses different proportions. Much like Cerutty's new recipe was the emphasize on developing not just the physical athlete but the Gestalt human spirit. His recipe had things which weren't really focused on such as very fast hill repeats and lifting very heavy weights, at a time when people thought weights should be light and the athlete should do a lot of volume if they were doing endurance sports.
Sub-14,
I do not understand why so many Aussies use the T/Th/Sa workout and Sunday long run routine. It seems like way too much density in a week. From Strava I have seen the MTC guys increase the long run to 1:45-2:00 but I don’t know if that necessarily helps or hurts things.
I was also interested that the XC training you posted on the Daniels thread is more of a traditional schedule of Tuesday/Friday workouts and Sunday long run. The track training that you posted on this thread was Tuesday/Thursday workouts and Saturday long.
I was also surprised that the Friday session looks more like a glorified strides workout than a full on workout.
not a master wrote:
" I will say that the specificity of that pace, the 30 minute race pace, and the beneficial effect that it has on the type iix muscle fibers is singular, in that slower or faster paces will not have the exact same effect. "
That is just a guess .
Contrary to this most successful training methods in history shows that the very best effect comes out of running at or close to VO2max and lactate threshold ( just a tiny bit slower than half marathon race pace ). The `secret` is to know how to handle these paces individually perfect. That way they become mild and not too demanding , and the entire cardio-
vascular system will improve.
hi same theme, i am not saying you are wrong in your points about other training methods also being effective. i am simply pointing out that you seem to hand-wave the specific details that make Tinman's method effective. But if you hand wave it, you loose the details which make it effective.
CV is 90% of VO2 max so that is not in contradiction to your last statement, but actually corroborates what you are saying about other teams.
Also forgive me, my wording made it sound like I was simply stating my opinion but there is empirical evidence that CV (defined by 90% VO2 max) impacts the blood lactate levels (vide:
).
Lastly i meant Type iia muscle fibers not iix.
Wish you the best
Footnote: Ultimately even science in its initial phase of investigation is speculative. So in that sense we are all "just guessing". Even in the formal study that Tinman performed at University of Michigan, he simply postulated a correlation between the empirical data and its causation due to the different of CV and 5k or faster paces in its effect on blood lactate. As my high school science psychology teacher used to say like a broken record mantra, "Correlation does not mean causation."
But for athletes who are seeking the means whereby to improve, if there is a correlation which is statistically greater than the standard deviation of the null hypothesis, then it may be worth pursuing if other methods have failed us as athletes. this was my case.
Do you have a copy of your day-to-day training anywhere?
Former Wildcat wrote:
Sub-14,
I do not understand why so many Aussies use the T/Th/Sa workout and Sunday long run routine. It seems like way too much density in a week. From Strava I have seen the MTC guys increase the long run to 1:45-2:00 but I don’t know if that necessarily helps or hurts things.
I was also interested that the XC training you posted on the Daniels thread is more of a traditional schedule of Tuesday/Friday workouts and Sunday long run. The track training that you posted on this thread was Tuesday/Thursday workouts and Saturday long.
I was also surprised that the Friday session looks more like a glorified strides workout than a full on workout.
I would say that schedule would be an ideal one to do. Recently I have had to switch over to the Tues/Thurs schedule to be better prepared for the week following race. Doing a long run on Sunday after a race isn't wise which I have done in the past (about 10 years ago). Most of the time the Sunday long run would be on their own and I really like to be there for that. With the Tues/Fri/Sun schedule I would often have either Wednesday or Saturday be on their own depending on how the weekend ended up with a race or not. I like the consistency of when we meet a lot better with Tues/Thurs. Not ideal, but it has been working out for us recently. The real hidden benefit is that it keeps me extremely honest about workout volume/intensity/placement. Sometimes I would push them a little more on the Tues/Fri schedule because I knew they would have more time for recovery. Can't do that anymore. It helps keep me honest as a coach.
To the other guy talking about most successful programs in history using primarily threshold (60 min pace?) and V02 max work....can you cite which ones? How do we define what is successful? Is it the program with the most elite success? The program that the most amount of people use? Lydiard was revolutionary for his time period and mostly did long steady tempos @ MP coupled, lots of hill sprints/drill, fartleks, and the occasional time trial. Very little V02 max work. Renato is the same way. Mostly fundamental or general preparation and only about 6 weeks is spent doing "specific" workouts. The only other famous training plans I can think about that had more extensive V02 work was the multi-pace training system used by Coe. Even if you try to cite Daniels, who is famous for popularizing V02 max/VDOT in the minds of Western coaches, he still mostly uses threshold work + short reps before he goes through only 6 weeks of V02 training (per 3rd edition).
The reason why Tinman is popular is because he is just one of many coaches who has hammered in our heads that V02 max training has been misunderstood and over-represented. It is just not that effective of a training tool as we once thought. The many flavors of manipulating the threshold, which is a spectrum and not just centered around "60 minute pace," is key for aerobic development while also doing neuromuscular work is all you need to get faster paces to feel smooth. The coordination of the aerobic/neuromuscular side of things doesn't take long. Races do the trick just fine. Lydiard caught on to this with his time trials and racing into fitness. Sorry if a lot of this challenges your preconceived notions of successful training programs....dogma was never a good thing anyways.
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
Former Wildcat wrote:
Sub-14,
I do not understand why so many Aussies use the T/Th/Sa workout and Sunday long run routine. It seems like way too much density in a week. From Strava I have seen the MTC guys increase the long run to 1:45-2:00 but I don’t know if that necessarily helps or hurts things.
I was also interested that the XC training you posted on the Daniels thread is more of a traditional schedule of Tuesday/Friday workouts and Sunday long run. The track training that you posted on this thread was Tuesday/Thursday workouts and Saturday long.
I was also surprised that the Friday session looks more like a glorified strides workout than a full on workout.
I would say that schedule would be an ideal one to do. Recently I have had to switch over to the Tues/Thurs schedule to be better prepared for the week following race. Doing a long run on Sunday after a race isn't wise which I have done in the past (about 10 years ago). Most of the time the Sunday long run would be on their own and I really like to be there for that. With the Tues/Fri/Sun schedule I would often have either Wednesday or Saturday be on their own depending on how the weekend ended up with a race or not. I like the consistency of when we meet a lot better with Tues/Thurs. Not ideal, but it has been working out for us recently. The real hidden benefit is that it keeps me extremely honest about workout volume/intensity/placement. Sometimes I would push them a little more on the Tues/Fri schedule because I knew they would have more time for recovery. Can't do that anymore. It helps keep me honest as a coach.
To the other guy talking about most successful programs in history using primarily threshold (60 min pace?) and V02 max work....can you cite which ones? How do we define what is successful? Is it the program with the most elite success? The program that the most amount of people use? Lydiard was revolutionary for his time period and mostly did long steady tempos @ MP coupled, lots of hill sprints/drill, fartleks, and the occasional time trial. Very little V02 max work. Renato is the same way. Mostly fundamental or general preparation and only about 6 weeks is spent doing "specific" workouts. The only other famous training plans I can think about that had more extensive V02 work was the multi-pace training system used by Coe. Even if you try to cite Daniels, who is famous for popularizing V02 max/VDOT in the minds of Western coaches, he still mostly uses threshold work + short reps before he goes through only 6 weeks of V02 training (per 3rd edition).
The reason why Tinman is popular is because he is just one of many coaches who has hammered in our heads that V02 max training has been misunderstood and over-represented. It is just not that effective of a training tool as we once thought. The many flavors of manipulating the threshold, which is a spectrum and not just centered around "60 minute pace," is key for aerobic development while also doing neuromuscular work is all you need to get faster paces to feel smooth. The coordination of the aerobic/neuromuscular side of things doesn't take long. Races do the trick just fine. Lydiard caught on to this with his time trials and racing into fitness. Sorry if a lot of this challenges your preconceived notions of successful training programs....dogma was never a good thing anyways.
Love reading all this. What are your thoughts on paces for summer and winter base phase? During the summer, my son’s coach has two threshold type workouts a week, along with a progressive long run. However, on the easy days, the coach mentioned 1:00-1:30 slower than 5 k pace. I’ll be honest, this worries me and my son. My son runs a 15:4? For the 5 k , which would mean he’d be going at a fast clip, even on his easy days. He’s thinking of going into the coach to talk with him. He hates to question the coach, but he’s concearned it would not allow him to recover. What are your thought? Is he overly concearned about his easy/everyday pace, or should he adddrss it with his coach?
The reason why Tinman is popular is because he is just one of many coaches who has hammered in our heads that V02 max training has been misunderstood and over-represented. It is just not that effective of a training tool as we once thought.
Well put! This realization, not unique to Tinman but part of his "flavour" as you say, is one of the reason's i believe and have experience personally his program is effective.
The only time in my Tinman designed training we have hit VO2 max reps has been infrequent and in the following contexts/durations.
- Within a workout with longer distance slower reps (Tempoish), as well as faster shorter distance reps (800m pace reps), I would be asked to run only 2 Kilometer or 1200m reps and with plenty of rest in between specifically at VO2 max pace. Note this workout has only be assigned on the order of once ever month at most and usually not that frequently.
- Time Trial (not specifically VO2 max but probably ended up running closer to that pace than any other work out)
- Races as Sub14 said
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
Former Wildcat wrote:
Sub-14,
I do not understand why so many Aussies use the T/Th/Sa workout and Sunday long run routine. It seems like way too much density in a week. From Strava I have seen the MTC guys increase the long run to 1:45-2:00 but I don’t know if that necessarily helps or hurts things.
I was also interested that the XC training you posted on the Daniels thread is more of a traditional schedule of Tuesday/Friday workouts and Sunday long run. The track training that you posted on this thread was Tuesday/Thursday workouts and Saturday long.
I was also surprised that the Friday session looks more like a glorified strides workout than a full on workout.
I would say that schedule would be an ideal one to do. Recently I have had to switch over to the Tues/Thurs schedule to be better prepared for the week following race. Doing a long run on Sunday after a race isn't wise which I have done in the past (about 10 years ago). Most of the time the Sunday long run would be on their own and I really like to be there for that. With the Tues/Fri/Sun schedule I would often have either Wednesday or Saturday be on their own depending on how the weekend ended up with a race or not. I like the consistency of when we meet a lot better with Tues/Thurs. Not ideal, but it has been working out for us recently. The real hidden benefit is that it keeps me extremely honest about workout volume/intensity/placement. Sometimes I would push them a little more on the Tues/Fri schedule because I knew they would have more time for recovery. Can't do that anymore. It helps keep me honest as a coach.
To the other guy talking about most successful programs in history using primarily threshold (60 min pace?) and V02 max work....can you cite which ones? How do we define what is successful? Is it the program with the most elite success? The program that the most amount of people use? Lydiard was revolutionary for his time period and mostly did long steady tempos @ MP coupled, lots of hill sprints/drill, fartleks, and the occasional time trial. Very little V02 max work. Renato is the same way. Mostly fundamental or general preparation and only about 6 weeks is spent doing "specific" workouts. The only other famous training plans I can think about that had more extensive V02 work was the multi-pace training system used by Coe. Even if you try to cite Daniels, who is famous for popularizing V02 max/VDOT in the minds of Western coaches, he still mostly uses threshold work + short reps before he goes through only 6 weeks of V02 training (per 3rd edition).
The reason why Tinman is popular is because he is just one of many coaches who has hammered in our heads that V02 max training has been misunderstood and over-represented. It is just not that effective of a training tool as we once thought. The many flavors of manipulating the threshold, which is a spectrum and not just centered around "60 minute pace," is key for aerobic development while also doing neuromuscular work is all you need to get faster paces to feel smooth. The coordination of the aerobic/neuromuscular side of things doesn't take long. Races do the trick just fine. Lydiard caught on to this with his time trials and racing into fitness. Sorry if a lot of this challenges your preconceived notions of successful training programs....dogma was never a good thing anyways.
This is wrong. The Lydiard "anaerobic phase" was very typical "Vo2 max training". Stuff like 3x1600 or 6x800 3 times/week for a month.
well,, wrote:
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
I would say that schedule would be an ideal one to do. Recently I have had to switch over to the Tues/Thurs schedule to be better prepared for the week following race. Doing a long run on Sunday after a race isn't wise which I have done in the past (about 10 years ago). Most of the time the Sunday long run would be on their own and I really like to be there for that. With the Tues/Fri/Sun schedule I would often have either Wednesday or Saturday be on their own depending on how the weekend ended up with a race or not. I like the consistency of when we meet a lot better with Tues/Thurs. Not ideal, but it has been working out for us recently. The real hidden benefit is that it keeps me extremely honest about workout volume/intensity/placement. Sometimes I would push them a little more on the Tues/Fri schedule because I knew they would have more time for recovery. Can't do that anymore. It helps keep me honest as a coach.
To the other guy talking about most successful programs in history using primarily threshold (60 min pace?) and V02 max work....can you cite which ones? How do we define what is successful? Is it the program with the most elite success? The program that the most amount of people use? Lydiard was revolutionary for his time period and mostly did long steady tempos @ MP coupled, lots of hill sprints/drill, fartleks, and the occasional time trial. Very little V02 max work. Renato is the same way. Mostly fundamental or general preparation and only about 6 weeks is spent doing "specific" workouts. The only other famous training plans I can think about that had more extensive V02 work was the multi-pace training system used by Coe. Even if you try to cite Daniels, who is famous for popularizing V02 max/VDOT in the minds of Western coaches, he still mostly uses threshold work + short reps before he goes through only 6 weeks of V02 training (per 3rd edition).
The reason why Tinman is popular is because he is just one of many coaches who has hammered in our heads that V02 max training has been misunderstood and over-represented. It is just not that effective of a training tool as we once thought. The many flavors of manipulating the threshold, which is a spectrum and not just centered around "60 minute pace," is key for aerobic development while also doing neuromuscular work is all you need to get faster paces to feel smooth. The coordination of the aerobic/neuromuscular side of things doesn't take long. Races do the trick just fine. Lydiard caught on to this with his time trials and racing into fitness. Sorry if a lot of this challenges your preconceived notions of successful training programs....dogma was never a good thing anyways.
This is wrong. The Lydiard "anaerobic phase" was very typical "Vo2 max training". Stuff like 3x1600 or 6x800 3 times/week for a month.
True
3 x 4 = 12
So it takes 12 sessions/races to develop the anaerobic system.
How many races does a typical high school or college program have?
Most high school race 12 times even before their championship races. That means there’s no need for anaerobic sessions because they have done them in races.