Clemence Calvin - who allegedly refused a doping test last month - sets new French NR of 2:23:41 in Paris

rekrunner wrote:

Spain has a reputation for doping, but what separates me from most of you, is not so much suspicion of doping or prevalence of whatever population, but how that may or may not be connected to the fastest performances.

When I looked at performances, I specifically looked at how the fastest Spaniards performed, compared to other non-Africans around the world, and compared to the fastest pre-1990 performances. Despite their reputation, they didn't seem to stand out.

I answered this claim of yours ages ago. It's hard to compare Spain between the 80's and 90's for a variety of reasons, and certainly not in your simplistic 'top 5 analysis'. For a start, the two best 1500m runners in the 80's both moved up to the 5000m and performed very well (at least recorded fast times). Secondly, if anyone in Europe was doping in the 80s it would have been Gonzalez and/or Abascal, both of whom had much dodgier career progressions than the Brits, both almost same age, both recording their fastest 1500 and 5000 times at the age of 28 or 29 when they appeared to move up another level. It's even been claimed in this forum by 'somebody in the know' that the first European runner to use EPO was a top Spanish middle-distance guy in the mid to late 80s.

So because the likes of Cacho only ran 2 or 3 seconds faster than Gonzalez and Abascal, both of whom may have been doping at least at the end of their careers when they ran fast 1500/5000 times, this proves that EPO doesn't work. LOL!

Subway Surfers wrote:

Ah but how clean were the Iberians before 1990?

+1

badabeu wrote:

Her husband is not moroccan. .

Her husband's name is Samir Dahmani.

But you're right, no doubt he has the tri-color running through his veins.

[quote]Coevett wrote:

I answered this claim of yours ages ago. It's hard to compare Spain between the 80's and 90's for a variety of reasons, and certainly not in your simplistic 'top 5 analysis'.

[quote]

What about all the Spanish performances of the 1990s to the early 2000s? They were winning medals all over the place, including a few sweeps at the Euro champs (eg 1994 marathon). Spain was a good distance running nation before 1990 but they were not winning medals like they were in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Spain has a reputation for doping, but what separates me from most of you, is not so much suspicion of doping or prevalence of whatever population, but how that may or may not be connected to the fastest performances.

When I looked at performances, I specifically looked at how the fastest Spaniards performed, compared to other non-Africans around the world, and compared to the fastest pre-1990 performances. Despite their reputation, they didn't seem to stand out.

Ah but how clean were the Iberians before 1990?

Spain got 22 medals at the '92 Barcelona Olympics. Four years earlier, at Seoul, they got 4 medals and averaged 2-3 medals at most Games previously. The good old nineties.

Spanish armada wrote:

[quote]Coevett wrote:

I answered this claim of yours ages ago. It's hard to compare Spain between the 80's and 90's for a variety of reasons, and certainly not in your simplistic 'top 5 analysis'.

[quote]

What about all the Spanish performances of the 1990s to the early 2000s? They were winning medals all over the place, including a few sweeps at the Euro champs (eg 1994 marathon). Spain was a good distance running nation before 1990 but they were not winning medals like they were in the 1990s and early 2000s.

They profited from the decline of the Brits. That, and likely going full throttle with the new stuff would explain Spain in the 90s. Also the holding of the Olympics in Barclelona would have obviously boost athletics for a decade or more in Spain (apart from the likely near state sponsored doping that took place), just as the London 2012 Olympics has clearly boosted middle-distance running in the UK.

But I agree with you and Armstrong, the Spanish were much more successful in terms of medals in the 90s, though it's very debatable whether their runners were any more talented than Gonzalez and Abascal. That's my point. Rekrunner is doing a purely schoolboy statistical analysis of 'top 5 times' etc, which can easily be skewed. Looking at the best Spanish times in the 80s and the 90s, the true picture doesn't come out. Those of us who were fans of the sport in the 80s and 90s, clearly recognize that Spain moved up a gear in the 90s, and from what we know about EPO in that era, we can draw our own conclusions as to why and they aren't the same as Rekrunner's with his 'top 5 times compared'.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

Ah but how clean were the Iberians before 1990?

Spain got 22 medals at the '92 Barcelona Olympics. Four years earlier, at Seoul, they got 4 medals and averaged 2-3 medals at most Games previously. The good old nineties.

Yeah...not only was the 90s really good to Spanish athletics but also in cycling as they produce a 5-time Tour de France winner! (1991 - 95). ?

I don't know enough about the career of Gonzalez to say he was likely doping. I know he had various injuries that interrupted his career (and Abascal too), but after being left in the dust by the Brits for nearly a decade, if suddenly finding the ability to blast out a sub 50 second final lap to outkick Steve Cram at his peak, at the age of 28 isn't a tad suspicious, I don't really know what is.

badabeu wrote:

Where things have turned really bad is that there is a kind of competition between AFLD and OCLAESP, and people of AFLD kind of fucked up with the sketchy testing in Marrakech, as OCLAESP was about to catch them.

Who says the test was botched?

The real issue would be testing before the OCLAESP could catch them with a suitcase full of vials. But did the OCLAESP tell them not to intervene? And what were they waiting for? They searched their house only a few days ago, after the AFLD test, and found nothing, obviously.

Morhad Amdouni who ran 2h09 in Paris was running his 1st marathon and was just expected to rabbit for 25km,

Amdouni was expected to finish:

.

What really bothers me is Calvin claiming all this nonsense. I hope she gets the full ban. In the future, they should probably film the tests (well, maybe not all of it, some people might object to being filmed peeing in a bottle). But until then, if the testers say they did their job and the athlete ran away, that should be evidence enough, unless the athlete can prove otherwise. She is guilty and her French marathon record should never be validated. I am tired of hearing people on TV saying she is innocent until proven guilty. It is proven already.

Right now, we have Patrick Montel suspended from his commentating job for telling the truth, while someone who cheats and lies through her teeth gloats on TV about her accusers being silenced.

Oh, and she loves Paris and she loves France. Fortunately, they limited her disgusting lawyer talk at the end of the race to just a few seconds.

El Keniano wrote:

Bulls***!

Seppelt leak, mostly from the last decade:

Russia 30%

Ukraine 28%

Turkey 27%

...

Kenya 11%

Holland 11%

Spain 11%

…

Ethiopia 8%

Sweden 7%

Germany 6%

Norway 5%

France 5%

USA 5%

Great Britain 4%

Canada 3%

New Zealand 2%

IAAF's 2016 suspicion/likely doping list:

Likely doping list:

Kenya: 9

USA: 4

UK: 1 (Farah)

Norway: 1 (Henrik)

Germany: 1 (Tesfaye)

Netherlands: 1 (Hassan)

France: 0

Canada: 0

Finland: 0

Sweden: 0

So, Kenya with 9 more than US, UK, Norway, Germany, Netherlands, France, Canada, Finland and Sweden combined (8). And that while being judged as non-compliant – we are talking about late 2015, early 2016 here.

rekrunner wrote:

Wait, Gatlin? Gatlin served two doping bans, and he's one of your top examples of USADA inaction?

One of my examples, yes. An obvious career doper, good old testo user, under a magnifying glass from 2010 - 2018, first 30+ guy to break 9.8, world champion at age 35 over 100 m, yet last time caught in 2006 (in competition, actually, what a brainiac...).

The reason she was in Morocco was because she didn't think she'd be tested there. When she saw the testers she panicked and here we are. This should be open/shut stuff, but because it's 2019, if you tell a lie loudly enough it becomes truth.

casual obsever wrote:

IAAF's 2016 suspicion/likely doping list:

Likely doping list:

Kenya: 9

USA: 4

UK: 1 (Farah)

Norway: 1 (Henrik)

Germany: 1 (Tesfaye)

Netherlands: 1 (Hassan)

France: 0

Canada: 0

Finland: 0

Sweden: 0

This is based on the ABP? And surely it's more difficult for the IAAF/WADA to build up an ABP of Kenyan athletes when for most of the year they aren't subjected to testing?

It would be nice to think that Ruto's ABP violation might be the result already of the new WADA lab in Nairobi. If it is, I doubt if there are many Kenyan elite runners sleeping well at the moment.

Coevett wrote:

This is based on the ABP? And surely it's more difficult for the IAAF/WADA to build up an ABP of Kenyan athletes when for most of the year they aren't subjected to testing?

Absolutely - that's what I meant with:

casual obsever wrote:

And that while being judged as non-compliant – we are talking about late 2015, early 2016 here.

El K asked for it...

He was not expected to finish according to himself or his coach:

Regarding OCLAESP vs AFLD:

badabeu wrote:

He was not expected to finish according to himself or his coach:

https://www.vo2.fr/marathon-de-paris-debuts-detonant-pour-morhad-amdouni/

From VO2:

Initialement, Morhad Amdouni devait courir 25 à 30 kilomètres

In the Le Pape article:

Je pars pour courir 20-30 km en ayant en tête bien sûr de terminer.

I think the idea was to go for it while keeping an excuse in case of failure.

Regarding OCLAESP vs AFLD:

https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2019/04/12/dopage-les-gendarmes-aux-trousses-de-la-marathonienne-clemence-calvin_5449444_3242.html

This article mostly underlines the bad relationships between the two, but they don't really say how they failed to communicate, or how they would have willfully ignored the other's planned operations. Maybe none of them is under the obligation to tell their plans to the other?

Spanish Armada wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Spain got 22 medals at the '92 Barcelona Olympics. Four years earlier, at Seoul, they got 4 medals and averaged 2-3 medals at most Games previously. The good old nineties.

Yeah...not only was the 90s really good to Spanish athletics but also in cycling as they produce a 5-time Tour de France winner! (1991 - 95). ?

This was the thing Rekrunner missed in his analysis. The Spanish were doping to win important things : the TdF, the Olympic 1500m, the Olympic road race, and big city marathons. Not so much about times but then again Cacho did run 3:28, now that's a Monaco time.

Coevett wrote:

I don't know enough about the career of Gonzalez to say he was likely doping. I know he had various injuries that interrupted his career (and Abascal too), but after being left in the dust by the Brits for nearly a decade, if suddenly finding the ability to blast out a sub 50 second final lap to outkick Steve Cram at his peak, at the age of 28 isn't a tad suspicious, I don't really know what is.

Well I've stated it before, the Spanish can't afford to crack down on PEDs or their economy would collapse. No Real Madrid or Barcelona, no cyclists, no tennis players, even motorsports.

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Wait, Gatlin? Gatlin served two doping bans, and he's one of your top examples of USADA inaction?

One of my examples, yes. An obvious career doper, good old testo user, under a magnifying glass from 2010 - 2018, first 30+ guy to break 9.8, world champion at age 35 over 100 m, yet last time caught in 2006 (in competition, actually, what a brainiac...).

In late 2017 just after Gatlin BEAT BOLT his management team were caught in UK newspaper sting trying to sell PEDs. Gatlin still ain't clean.