If you miss timing mats at the same race 4 consecutive years that is as good as a biological passport violation in my book.
If you miss timing mats at the same race 4 consecutive years that is as good as a biological passport violation in my book.
Over and out from me. wrote:
He's a well known coach to plenty and has been for years,
a lot of years
Who we are?
Aztlan Track Club was founded in 1974 in the East Los Angeles area by Carlos Alfaro and Frank Meza. It operated under the Aztlan Athletic Congress. Frank Meza is currently a medical doctor and coaches Cross Country and Track at Loyola High School.
Golgi Body wrote:
OK, here's an interesting series of races for ol' Frank: the Surf City USA marathon:
2011: 3:11:53 - missed the 3-mile and 6 mile timing mats. Interesting fact: his gun time was a full 23:05 slower than his chip time
2012: 3:09:27 - missed the 12.2 mile timing mat
2013: 3:03:50 - missed the 15 mile timing mat
2014: 3:04:44 - missed timing mats at 9 mi, 15.4 mi, and 16 mi
In 2014 the winner of the marathon also missed three timing mats. Perhaps the winner cheated or perhaps it has something to do with poor technology at that race and/or the way the chip is worn as it passes across the mat.
On 2011, the 9th place runner had a similar time difference between net time and gun time. Also many half marathoners that year had a big difference. It seems like they had a second wave.
Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
Golgi Body wrote:
OK, here's an interesting series of races for ol' Frank: the Surf City USA marathon:
2011: 3:11:53 - missed the 3-mile and 6 mile timing mats. Interesting fact: his gun time was a full 23:05 slower than his chip time
2012: 3:09:27 - missed the 12.2 mile timing mat
2013: 3:03:50 - missed the 15 mile timing mat
2014: 3:04:44 - missed timing mats at 9 mi, 15.4 mi, and 16 mi
In 2014 the winner of the marathon also missed three timing mats. Perhaps the winner cheated or perhaps it has something to do with poor technology at that race and/or the way the chip is worn as it passes across the mat.
On 2011, the 9th place runner had a similar time difference between net time and gun time. Also many half marathoners that year had a big difference. It seems like they had a second wave.
Did the 9th place winner miss the 3 AND 6 mile timing mats too?
Frank Meza Report wrote:
Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
In 2014 the winner of the marathon also missed three timing mats. Perhaps the winner cheated or perhaps it has something to do with poor technology at that race and/or the way the chip is worn as it passes across the mat.
On 2011, the 9th place runner had a similar time difference between net time and gun time. Also many half marathoners that year had a big difference. It seems like they had a second wave.
Did the 9th place winner miss the 3 AND 6 mile timing mats too?
No, but the winner of the 2014 Surf City Marathon wasn’t disqualfied for missing 3 timing mats.
He didn’t miss mats at LA 2019, Phoenix 2019, LA 2018, etc.
There are lots of discussions online about how the wearing of the chip without line of sight can affect whether it registers. For example:
https://www.athleteguild.com/node/10062Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
Frank Meza Report wrote:
Did the 9th place winner miss the 3 AND 6 mile timing mats too?
No, but the winner of the 2014 Surf City Marathon wasn’t disqualfied for missing 3 timing mats.
He didn’t miss mats at LA 2019, Phoenix 2019, LA 2018, etc.
There are lots of discussions online about how the wearing of the chip without line of sight can affect whether it registers. For example:
https://www.athleteguild.com/node/10062
Like when he wears it off to the side for parts or most of the race. It’s a built in excuse for his timing chip not registering. As people have mentioned before there are races where his bib isn’t visible/no pics. It’s amazing how a malfunctioning /blocked chip misses timing mats throughout his many races but NEVER misses the finishing mat.
Frank also likes to run with two watches just in case he has to call friends or family in different time zones while running.
LAM 2018 CAM and the magical bib
43:10 Frank Meza appears at the top left hand corner in a white singlet and long black shorts with no bib visible
43:17 A long black line comes across his white singlet
43:23 Frank’s hands both drop to adjust something around his black shorts
43:26 White bib is now visible on the long black shorts
43:37 Dr. Meza veers off to the side of the crowd to hand off something to a bystander
https://ktla.com/2018/03/18/live-video-watch-final-leg-of-l-a-marathon-on-finish-line-cam/Was he wearing a long sleeve black top earlier in the race, cos that's what it looked like he was handing to someone. What part of the race was that?
Frank Meza Report wrote:
There are lots of discussions online about how the wearing of the chip without line of sight can affect whether it registers. For example:
https://www.athleteguild.com/node/10062
[/quote]
I know they are trying to educate , but a lot wrong with that article:
"One of the most exasperating issues that timers everywhere face is having to do with failed chips. If you ever get a group of timers together to talk about their biggest problem, the top of the list will be read rates. Everyone regardless of the equipment used and chip type suffers from the same ailment. There is no perfect solution and timers spend a lot of time and energy trying to figure out the optimum solution to the problem."
Maybe they talk about foolish runners that fold up the bib and put it in pocket, or scratch the chip off because they thought it hid some lucky prize (yes!!), or leave it in car or many other stupid things then wonder why they don't have a time.
"Average failure rate of chips in the industry is around 2%. That is not to say that every race will miss 2% of its participants but on average a timer can expect to miss that number with a single system. "
If that's the case they should get a better brand of equipment, or get out of the industry.
5 missed reads across 8,000 potential reads for us works out to 0.0625%
Yes chips are affected by moisture (which is reason for foam cover) , but even getting straight out of a river and over mats will give you a read (that is actually a real life example from above figures)
Amazing sleuthing. wrote:
Was he wearing a long sleeve black top earlier in the race, cos that's what it looked like he was handing to someone. What part of the race was that?
track suit top and bottoms with black top underneath by the looks of it
https://www.marathonfoto.com/Proofs?PIN=04JH90&lastName=MEZAFrank Meza Report wrote:
Frank also likes to run with two watches just in case he has to call friends or family in different time zones while running.
now why would that be lol
Frank Meza Report wrote:
Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
He didn’t miss mats at LA 2019, Phoenix 2019, LA 2018, etc.
There are lots of discussions online about how the wearing of the chip without line of sight can affect whether it registers. For example:
https://www.athleteguild.com/node/10062Like when he wears it off to the side for parts or most of the race. It’s a built in excuse for his timing chip not registering. As people have mentioned before there are races where his bib isn’t visible/no pics. It’s amazing how a malfunctioning /blocked chip misses timing mats throughout his many races but NEVER misses the finishing mat.
The piece specifically talks about how wearing the chip can affect the mat reads and how it can be mitigated by, for example, adding more mats at the finishing line to improve read liklihood:
“The RF is really line of sight so people using the chip incorrectly can cause an issue such as wearing a chip bib on their back instead of front, or in the case of an ankle chip on their inside instead of outside leg.
“There are several things that timers use to try to mitigate the problem. The costliest but most reliable is to simply add more systems. In the case of antennas it means adding additional antenna arrays. In the case of ground mats, it means adding additional mats lined up so that the runner has a longer stretch of possible reads. What runners don't realize though is that those additional systems are really hiding the problem rather than solving it.”
Here’s a quote from Marathon Investigation:
“Most timing systems are highly reliable, but when the chip is embedded in the bib, it is important to have the bib on the front of your body to ensure that it registers at all mats.”
My understanding is that the technology has improved in the last 5 or so years.
Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
Here’s a quote from Marathon Investigation:
“Most timing systems are highly reliable, but when the chip is embedded in the bib, it is important to have the bib on the front of your body to ensure that it registers at all mats.”
My understanding is that the technology has improved in the last 5 or so years.
Yes. One set of 4 m of mats would have up to 8 antennae. If you have vertically aligned RD field (vertically placed chips on bib), then you would get the chip activated from all angles, even in a mass start if the reads were unfiltered you would have hundreds of reads, so typically the decoder filters will for example at start give you the 'last' read and at finish 'first' finish and also filter for strongest signal (i.e. over the mat)...reaction time and dead time (between reads ) can also be set and with multiple antennae (one line or two or more) a chip cannot be addressed by more than one antenna at a time (but split seconds apart), so the likelihood is that at start where your hit rate will be lowest (dense field) you could have an acceptable miss at a line of mats of 0.1% (or 1 out of 1,000 or 50 out of say London start) , then any disputes can default to gun and then to camera.
At splits that failure drops to 1 out of 10,000 (especially with double rows) and at finish even less plus you have camera for the few disputes.
Now ...if you purposely wear your bib incorrectly (have a fuel belt with buckle over it, or damage chip)...then of course you can hop on a bicycle, but beware the camera
cheers
The curious bit is explaining why people (like me) who have run in hundreds of chip-timed races with a wide variety of systems where the rfid tag has been variously on the bib, ankle strap, attached to upper of shoe have never had one missed split.
Past experience suggests that people who do odd things with their number such as covering it, wearing it in odd locations or on a belt have had ulterior reasons for doing so. There really needs to be tighter enforcement of DQs for not wearing the number attached to the front of the vest. I have taken part in fell races where folding the borders of the number to make it as small as possible is a highly fashionable thing and RDs have stated that anyone doing this resulting in any additional text on the bib such as a sponsor's name being not visible will be DQd.
I Am Sam wrote:
Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
Here’s a quote from Marathon Investigation:
“Most timing systems are highly reliable, but when the chip is embedded in the bib, it is important to have the bib on the front of your body to ensure that it registers at all mats.”
My understanding is that the technology has improved in the last 5 or so years.
Now ...if you purposely wear your bib incorrectly (have a fuel belt with buckle over it, or damage chip)...then of course you can hop on a bicycle, but beware the camera
cheers
It’s a good thing that with better technology it hasn’t been a problem with chip reads for his recent fast marathons. He has plenty of photos in LA 2019 for exmple. But as I said previously, if he cheated there, he could have taken a bus/cab or obviously a bicycle too.
Here’s a piece by the Race Director of the Boston Marathon discussing bib belts:
https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20855476/how-do-you-secure-your-race-number/
I really struggle with an obviously intelligent person claiming to find pinning a number on a vest straight a significant problem - as for pins - I have a small container in my running kit full of them - which I re-use.
ExpertKipWatcher wrote:
I really struggle with an obviously intelligent person claiming to find pinning a number on a vest straight a significant problem - as for pins - I have a small container in my running kit full of them - which I re-use.
I agree. I’ve always used the pins, but as I think about it , for me, it could be useful when wearing layers at different times on the course. I also noticed that some belts have pouches where things could be stored.
That seems to be the post here. Where are the answers?
Mark’s Thoughts2 wrote:
Frank Meza Report wrote:
Did the 9th place winner miss the 3 AND 6 mile timing mats too?
No, but the winner of the 2014 Surf City Marathon wasn’t disqualfied for missing 3 timing mats.
He didn’t miss mats at LA 2019, Phoenix 2019, LA 2018, etc.
There are lots of discussions online about how the wearing of the chip without line of sight can affect whether it registers. For example:
https://www.athleteguild.com/node/10062
That's a bit disingenuous. I already mentioned that the winner (and a couple of other faster runners - sub 2:40) missed chip times in a couple of spots in the 2014 edition, but that people later in the race (i.e. around Meza's time) didn't seem to have that problem. The explanation that jumps to my mind is that maybe they didn't have the timing mats set up when the first few runners came through in a couple of spots, but had the problem fixed well before Meza arrived.
Anyway, that's only one year out of four. Missed mats didn't seem to be an issue for other runners in 2011, 2012, or 2013, but Meza still found a way to miss mats in all those years.
And it's true that he didn't miss mats in LA 2019, Phoenix 2019, LA 2018, as you say. Well, Phoenix 2019 didn't have intermediate split mats, as far as I can tell. I don't see any split times for that race, so naturally he can't be accused of missing any. And in the LA Marathons, the dispute there is that he hit all the mats, but had impossible splits (i.e. 18:55 5k and 24+ 5k in same race). So to spell it out, it seems that he probably changed his M.O. at some point after 2016, or just realized he had to be pay more attention to crossing all the timing mats.
And there is a certain plausibility issue even if you take his marathon times at face value (just looking at Surf City, LA, and Phoenix results here - it gets pretty time-consuming trying to find every result). A long-time runner running a 3:09 in his early 60's is fantastic, if real. To improve by 5 minutes at the same race the next year would be a miracle, or perhaps could be explained by a re-dedication to training. To improve again the next year, shocking. Defying Father Time like that for 2 years in a row at that advanced of an age is very rare. Then fast forward a couple of years, and he's taking 10 more minutes off that time in the LA marathon and Phoenix Marathon? I want to hear about this training program he's on! It might barely be possible to improve like that if he was someone who was new to running in his 60's, but apparently that is not the case. Combine the unlikely improvement trajectory with all the missed timing mats, impossible splits, bib number shenanigans, and the fact that he looks like a regular old jogger in his photos, and the story becomes very difficult to swallow.
When Dr Meza operates, he cuts & stitches until it’s a WR!