Why is 90 minutes a long run? Do the special adaptations start at 90min or have you already benefitted?

Phoenix wrote:

Layman wrote:

Phoenix, could you explain in layman terms how glycogen depeletion leads to glycolysis in fast-twitch fibres? It's not like they need energy since they are not contracting right? I'm thinking any ATP required for basic cell processes would be quite insignificant and can be just derived from blood glucse.

The glycogen depletion leads to glycolysis not vice versa as you wrote above.

Explanation in Layman's Terms:

Exercise causes the release of a hormone called epinephrine from a part of the adrenal gland call the medulla. Epinephrine is the same thing as adrenaline. So, that jolt you get when startled--that's epinephrine.

Cells throughout the body have receptors that bind epinephrine. When these receptors bind epinephrine cellular processes are altered. One type of EPI receptor found on cells including skeletal muscle cells is called the beta-2 adrenergic receptor. (The word adrenergic comes from the word adrenal. The word adrenal means near the kidney: ad-renal.)

When EPI docks on the beta-2 receptors on skeletal muscle it triggers the break down of glycogen and the formation of lactate through a signaling pathway called the cAMP/PKA (cyclic AMP/Protein Kinase A) pathway. The epinephrine is causing the glycolysis.

The lactate released from the non-working muscles can be used as fuel by tissues throughout the body including sketetal muscle and heart. The heart is very good at using lactate for fuel becuase of it large number of mitochondria. The heart can be up to 8% mitochondria by weight. Well trained skeletal muscle can be ~2% mitochondria by weight, higher in slow twitch fibers and less in fast twitch fibers. Thus slow twitch fibers are much better at using lactate for fuel than fast twitch fibers. Lactate can be reconverted into glycogen in skeletal muscle and liver. Additionally the liver can convert it back into glucose for immediate release into the blood stream.

This system is beneficial because it allow the fast twitch fibers which are not suitable for use in endurance running to serve as a fuel tank for the slow twitch fibers. Hence even after the slow twitch fibers are glycogen depleted their energy supply can be maintained somewhat by lactate from the fast twitch fibers and glucose from the liver and fat.

Fasting empties the liver of glycogen but will NOT empty the muscles of glycogen. Another hormone called glucagon acts through the same cAMP/PKA pathway to cause glycolyis in the liver but the release of glucose into the blood. Glucagon becomes elevated while fasting. Skeletal muscle lacks glucagon receptors. So, the only way to access the skeletal muscle fuel take is by exercising.

But, do remember that the glycogen depletion occuring in fast twitch fibers that are not recruited on long runs is almost certainly an adaptation stimulus of some kind. Glycogen is a known inhibitor of one pathway for mitochondrial biogenesis. Purposely restricting food intake is to keep muscle glycogen low by not restoring muscle glycogen after workouts in hope of better stimulating mitochondrial growth is probably a bad idea. To stay healthy you should try and recover in every legal way possible. A study just came out showing that interleukin-6, a potent stress chemical with sometimes harmful effects, is released from skeletal muscle if a training session is started with extremely glycogen depleted muscles. However, starting with adequate glycogen and then depleting during the run didn't seem to have the same effect. So, the necessary pattern seems to be empty duing the run, but fill back up a some before the next run. This is really too new of a finding to say much though.

J Appl Physiol. 2003 Aug 22 [Epub ahead of print].

Interleukin-6 release from human skeletal muscle during exercise: relation to

AMPK activity.

MacDonald C, Wojtaszewski JF, Pedersen BK, Kiens B, Richter EA.

Human Physiology, Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Institute of Exercise and

Sport Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Hope that helps. Exercise physiology and biochemistry is really quite interesting and applicable where it is really understood. I can tell you that we are just on the surface of understanding what is really going on. People like Lydiard et. al. are scientists in their own right. They made observations about training responses and explained them as well as they could. Sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong. Sometimes we are wrong today. Sometimes were are right.

Let think this through wrote:

stuff people say... wrote:

That happens whether you run long or not though doesn't it? The human body does not need to learn how to metabolize fat when glycogen stores are low.

Think about it, who is burning more fat in a marathon, Eliud Kipchoge or Joe Hobbyjogger?

The hobby jogger, since Eliud Kipchoge is only out there running for a bit over 2 hours(around the time one uses most of the glycogen one has stored). While most hobby joggers are out there for over 3 hours. And If you don't think you need to work on your body using fat, just try to do a workout on a fasted state without ever doing one before. Just a quick question. If working on your body to utilize fat more efficiently doesn't matter. Why does Canova has his athletes do specific workouts to work on this aspect?

stuff people say... wrote:

Let think this through wrote:

The hobby jogger, since Eliud Kipchoge is only out there running for a bit over 2 hours(around the time one uses most of the glycogen one has stored). While most hobby joggers are out there for over 3 hours. And If you don't think you need to work on your body using fat, just try to do a workout on a fasted state without ever doing one before. Just a quick question. If working on your body to utilize fat more efficiently doesn't matter. Why does Canova has his athletes do specific workouts to work on this aspect?

Well, you're right on the first point. Joe Hobbyjogger metabolized more fat in a marathon than Eliud Kipgoat.

But on the second point, fasted runs are pretty pointless, it's just another way to prove what a tough guy you are, which is not the point of the training. I get how tough you are, just like Joe Hobbyjogger running well over 3 hours for a marathon, he's super tough to hurt himself that much ain't he?

Renato's Marathon specific workouts (in fact all his specific workouts) are all about EXTENDING ENDURANCE. That is not a fat adaption, it's a skills adaption, strengthening the neural pathways which is linked to more glycogen storage along that specific pathway.

The point is, your body knows how to metabolize fats when glycogen stores are low and it naturally stores more intrumuscular triglycerides for this purpose when you train more and eat more.

Fat adaption blah blah blah, it's just stuff people say, like "you have to land under your center of gravity" ....it's just nonsense, but if enough people say it, it becomes the Emperor's new clothes.

Renato Canova wrote:

Tinman, about the special block, the mean is to reach a massive physiological stimula, such as to produce the greatest possible adaptation in the body of the athlete.

This type of training is, of course, very much expensive, and cannot be used by athletes with little base, or still young.

I use about once every 3-4 weeks during the preparation for Marathon or HM. This training (from 45 to 60 km in the same day) includes a very high percentage (between 50% and 65%) of specific speed, and the remaining mileage is at speed 85%-90% of the specific.

For marathon, we have different kinds of "special blocks" :

A) SPECIAL BLOCK OF VOLUME

Example : Same in the morning and in the afternoon :

10 km at 90% of Marathon Pace + 10 > 15 km at full Marathon pace (globally 20 km at 90% + 20-30 km at Marathon pace).

In the case of an athlete running 2:06:36 (3:00 / km), can be 10k in 33' + 15 km in 45', both morning and afternoon.

In this way, we can run in one day more kilometers at specific speed, teaching our fibres to create the correct mixture of fuel reducing the request of glycogen (replaced

by the most powerful fatty acids) in order to last longer.

For helping the depletion of the tank, we also use not to have a lunch with carbohydrates : only some vegetable, and a lot of liquids. In any case, normally the training of the afternoon becomes better, and everybody is surprised...

B) SPECIAL MIXED BLOCK "A" (giving more importance to the Aerobic Power)

Ex :

a) 10 km at 90% of MP + 5 km at 105% (in the case of the above Marathon runner, 2'51" / km = 14'15")

b) 10 km at 90% + 10 x 1000m at 108% (2'46") rec. 2'

C) SPECIAL MIXED BLOCK "B" (giving more importance to the strength endurance)

Ex :

a) 10 km at 90% + 10 km at 100% (30')

b) 10 km at 90% + 15 x 500m climbing (10-12% gradient) very fast with long recovery (4'/5' in between)

We can organise a lot of different special blocks, depending on the period of the season and on the technical goals of the moment. I invite coaches to use their imagination.

One important point : when we want to bring somebody with high talent to become a top champion, WE NEED TO STIMULATE HIS QUALITIES. Everytime we go for specific training, the athlete must be able to produce quality, otherwise never can become a champion. When we speak about EXTENSION, we speak about QUALITY OF EXTENSION. Mileage without intensity is completely useless (good for rigeneration, but it's not training). So, the quality for a marathon runner is not to run a lot of 400m in 60", when the pace for the WR is 71" every 400m. Every speed faster than 5% of the race pace doesn't have any action on the specific performance (in this case, if the MP for the WE is 2'57" = 17"7 every 100m, 105% is 15"9 = 400m in 63"6 = 1000m in 2'39").

Quality is to run 14-16 km on track, mixing short and middle intervals (for example, 7 sets of 800 in 2'07" + 600 in 1'35" + 400 in 63" + 200 in 30", rec. 1'30") with recovery between every set of 4' / 5'.

Eveybody can understand that, following this plan, the first effect is to run very fast 10000m...

8 miles isn't a long run wrote:

Hgfdrt wrote:

Your long run should be 20% of your weekly training whether you measure by distance or time..

That 20% rule, is one of the most stupidest things said by runners when it comes to running(I'd put it on the same stupid rule as increasing weekly mileage by 10%). Long run is by time, no matter how many miles you are putting out. When Peter Snell was putting in 136(when you include the 6 mile shake out jog he did ever morning (except the day of his long run), that Lydiard didn't count.) miles a week. His 22 mile long run was only 16% of weekly mileage. Or when looking at Alberto Salazar college training log, his longest long run was usually only 10-12 miles. Or about 10-12 % of weekly mileage. From what I've seen from Lasse Viren training. A person putting 140+ miles a week, longest run was only 25 kilometres(15.5 miles). Or less than 11% of weekly mileage. Todd Williams training log is on here, and while putting in 100 mile weeks. His longest long run was 10 miles or so. Or on the other end of the spectrum. Someone only running 20-40 miles a week. Any run that last 4-8 miles (4 miles for someone running 20 miles a week, 8 miles for someone running 40 miles a week) is considered a long run according to you? Even though that person will only be out running for about 30-60 minutes? Why is it 20%? When there are many cases of people's longest long run only being less than 16% of weekly mileage? Do you see how stupid this 20% rule is? Someone who is only running 20-40 miles a week, every run according to you is a long run. And someone putting in 130+ miles a week, should be running a 26 miles a week. No, the long run is to serve a physiological purposes. That occurs after about 90 minutes of running. Are long runs necessary? For the most part I would argue, no. Unless you are training for a marathon, you should put more focus on the other 6 days a week. Overall weekly volume is what matters. But this idea that 20% of weekly volume is a long run is stupid. If you do a long run, it should be based off of time. Not based off of weekly volume.