Roger Bannister = A Genetic Freak

Mobius Home wrote:

logic fail wrote:

A genetic freak because he was suited to 1500/mile racing?

A genetic freak because he broke 4 minutes running on a mobius-strip track and was able to run upside down.

That's why he was able to beat Landy also.

well,, wrote:

iamnotworthy wrote:

For the way this guy trained he should have never been able to accomplish what he did.

Yes, I realize the number of guys under 4 now but you have to consider:

1) His training was completely different. Landy at least had some base running to work with.

2) Track surfaces were slow

3) Track shoes were horrible. I have a pair of spikes from that time period. I don't even know how they put those things on. I feel like ice skates are more comfortable.

4) Lack of sleep while in med school

5) Common thought was that it was not possible to break 4.

Gunder Hägg ran 4,01 in 1945, so I don´t think anyone thought that it was impossible.

Wrong. For many years, until Bannister achieved it, the view of the public and experts alike was that sub-four was impossible. Haegg's run was seen as evidence that human limits over the distance had pretty much been reached. That is why we know Bannister's name today, while so many other record holders have vanished into the mists of history. He was the first to conquer the equivalent of a track Everest.

I like to compete without any of that nonsense. I don't understand how any champion could do anything less. But that's me. I like to share good, truthful information with the world.

Armstronglivs wrote:

well,, wrote:

Gunder Hägg ran 4,01 in 1945, so I don´t think anyone thought that it was impossible.

Wrong. For many years, until Bannister achieved it, the view of the public and experts alike was that sub-four was impossible. Haegg's run was seen as evidence that human limits over the distance had pretty much been reached. That is why we know Bannister's name today, while so many other record holders have vanished into the mists of history. He was the first to conquer the equivalent of a track Everest.

So true. He was an exceptional human being in that he refused to believe that the mark was not achievable. He brought that attitude forward into his professional life.

He lied about his training and was on meth wrote:

He lied about his training. Often running at night and "hiking" a lot through the hills on the weekend. And was most likely on meth. Back than it was seen un gentlemen like to train hard. So he lied about his training.

"Hiking" in hills doesn't help anyone run a four minute mile. If this were true wouldn't ultra runners be really fast on the track?

Obviously used some kind of med aid. Lax regulations back then and availability for him combined with his knowledge not saying he was really smart but smart enough to formulate something for his benefit in running. To the open mind these are facts.. closed not so much.

Throwaway wrote:

Obviously used some kind of med aid. Lax regulations back then and availability for him combined with his knowledge not saying he was really smart but smart enough to formulate something for his benefit in running. To the open mind these are facts.. closed not so much.

They are not "facts" unless there is supporting evidence. And you have not provided any.

Looking just at what he was known to be doing, his training was quite good for the mile, a lot of solid tempo runs and mile goal race pace repeats. He may well have gotten more mileage in on the treadmill outside of known workouts as part of the experiments they were doing.

One of his staples was 10x440y on 1 minute rest. He ran 59s in this workout before his sub 4 race. Another source says he started these at 66 and dropped 1 second per interval, ending in 56 before his sub 4. There's a report of 3x1 1/2 M at 14:00 3M pace and a claim that he did the 1320y time trials weekly.

He expanded 60 second 440y pace to 2:00 880y repeats and finally to a 3:00 1320y time trial.

But the following is probably most accurate, taken from Fred Wilt's book and reported by Steve Magness back in 2005:

sjm RE: Roger Bannisters Training 9/11/2005 1:27PM - in reply to Tinman

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Here ya go on Bannister's training:

1953-54 Training: Starting in December, ran 5 times a week during noon hour. Several days consisted of 10x440 in 66 seconds with a 2minute rest after each. During the following months they were gradually speeded up till be the end of April the average had dropped to 59 seconds per 440.Following are some highlights of Bannister's training 3 weeks before his 3:59.4 world record. April 12-7x880 in 2:06 April 14- 3/4 mile in 3:00 April 15- 1/2 mile in 1:53.00 April 22- 10x400 in 58.9 April 24- 3/4 mile in 3:00.0 April 28- 3/4 mile in 2:59.9 April 30-1/2 mile in 1:54.0

from How They Train by Fred Wilt.

not only was he on meth he was almost 100% on testosterone which had been in use for athletes since paavo nurmi had used it - bull testicle extract.

In the 1950s, testosterone was available both as extract and synthetic form. Hitler used it extensively and the entire

captain america story was a metaphor for the discovery of testosterone.

it was commonly used among athletes in the 50s as an elixir.

most tainted notable achievement in track and field.

Throwaway wrote:

Obviously used some kind of med aid. Lax regulations back then and availability for him combined with his knowledge not saying he was really smart but smart enough to formulate something for his benefit in running. To the open mind these are facts.. closed not so much.

So you are "not saying he was really smart"? Smart enough to write a medical text book in his career as a doctor. Obviously way smarter than you. And bound by oath to uphold the ethics of his profession, which would prevent him doing what you accuse him of, and without foundation. Jerk.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Franz Stampfl was his coach. The era before conditioning training. And altitude. And EPO's. So, yes, it was some feat.

I knew Franz Stampfl.

There were no easy programs with Franz

gkjsglkfjglskfgj wrote:

not only was he on meth he was almost 100% on testosterone which had been in use for athletes since paavo nurmi had used it - bull testicle extract.

In the 1950s, testosterone was available both as extract and synthetic form. Hitler used it extensively and the entire

captain america story was a metaphor for the discovery of testosterone.

it was commonly used among athletes in the 50s as an elixir.

most tainted notable achievement in track and field.

Talking of bull testicle, that would be the entirety of this post. Obviously high on meth.

My English grandfather was close with Bannister. He was captain of the Cambridge athletics team while Roger was captain of Oxford’s.....Roger later became my uncle’s godfather. We went to Cornwall (southern England) once and my grandfather said Roger had trained intensively on the hills there. It was pretty clear he meant running, not hiking.

Armstronglivs wrote:

well,, wrote:

Gunder Hägg ran 4,01 in 1945, so I don´t think anyone thought that it was impossible.

Wrong. For many years, until Bannister achieved it, the view of the public and experts alike was that sub-four was impossible. Haegg's run was seen as evidence that human limits over the distance had pretty much been reached. That is why we know Bannister's name today, while so many other record holders have vanished into the mists of history. He was the first to conquer the equivalent of a track Everest.

BS.

Bannister had a deep understanding of human physiology and wrote many papers on oxygen/CO2/lactate during severe exercise. For his research he tested himself many times on a ramped treadmill hooked up to breathing tubes, as well as other devices. On the treadmill tests he would last 3x longer than the average person. His oxygen uptake was double the average. He mainly ran 440yd intervals and unstructured fartlek. His total mileage was very low and as far as i can tell he rarely did long runs topping out at only 10-12k. He was largely self coached, never started "regular" training until he was in med school at age 18, though he did win "upper school" cross country, training only once or twice a week!

So yeah, he was a genetic freak and left a lot on the table.

He also had the ability to push himself extremely hard, to the point of collapse. This may also be genetic.

Bannister trained to race 4 minutes. Unfortunately that meant he couldn't handle all the heats in the Olympics. Contrast with John Landy who understood the concept of base mileage and would not start specific training until at least 300 miles (500k) of easy running. Bannister retired the same year he broke the record, how much better would he have been with more years of development and a more balanced training plan?!

And drugs? Bannister was a pioneer in anti-drug use, being a very vocal anti-drug campaigner and helped to develop the first anabolic steroid test in the 1970s.

iamnotworthy wrote:

For the way this guy trained he should have never been able to accomplish what he did.

Yes, I realize the number of guys under 4 now but you have to consider:

1) His training was completely different. Landy at least had some base running to work with.

2) Track surfaces were slow

3) Track shoes were horrible. I have a pair of spikes from that time period. I don't even know how they put those things on. I feel like ice skates are more comfortable.

4) Lack of sleep while in med school

5) Common thought was that it was not possible to break 4.

there are plenty of guys today that could train 25-30 miles a week and run sub-4:00 miles.

Running more miles just makes you stronger and faster if you're allowing yourself enough recovery, but it's not necessary for some who are super talented.

Donovan Brazier didn't need mileage in high school because he's hyper talented.

every great runner has one key ingredient that allows them to be very fast: TALENT

Bannisters was 6'2" and 154 pounds.

Considering 62% of Brits are overweight or obese i'd say yeah, he's a genetic freak.

iamnotworthy wrote:

For the way this guy trained he should have never been able to accomplish what he did.

Yes, I realize the number of guys under 4 now but you have to consider:

1) His training was completely different. Landy at least had some base running to work with.

2) Track surfaces were slow

3) Track shoes were horrible. I have a pair of spikes from that time period. I don't even know how they put those things on. I feel like ice skates are more comfortable.

4) Lack of sleep while in med school

5) Common thought was that it was not possible to break 4.

ya bannister's training was just terrible. but the results emphasize you don't need as much volume as you think.

meaning that a mile is not that far, and people over do workouts.

with that lousy training, bannister could go full out, while a landy could not shift gears fully, due in part to the training base, so he's finish with reserves and could hold up bannister, who was at death's door.

the idea, is to do your redline training, the quality stuff, until the point where your body gets the message, that it might die if it does not adapt.... and you shut it down as soon as the body gets that message.

i'd say that for the 1500 m distance and you are looking at 800m repeats, 3 or 4 x 800 is much preferable to 6-10x 800.

you do the lesser set at quality, the recovery will be quicker, the adaptation will be quicker, that is for the 1500 m adaptation.

2 things:

Bob Schul was more of a freak genetically.

Also, If Bannister ripped off a 13 minute 5k during this stretch he would be a freak, did the guy ever record another time and distance that was impressive?