Road Racing and Training Thread Week Ending 12/30/2018

Also, my 2018 year in review:

Total miles: 2606; also 159:30 hours of pool-running, which I count as sort of equivalent to 957 miles of running (10 minutes=1 mile) and 110,500 yards of swimming (~63 miles)

Total races: 16 (three marathons, two halves, one 10 miler, one 10K, three 5ks, and five road miles.)

PRs: four - Houston Half (1:25:43), Grandma's Full (3:02:58), Richmond Half (1:24:22), CIM (2:57:42)

Most miserably memorable races - tie between Boston 2018 and the Harrisburg road mile (a straight point-to-point course), where I ran the open masters heat, finished, and immediately jogged a mile back to the start for the elite heat, which started 3 minutes after I arrived at the line. In retrospect, not my brightest idea (I also knew that it was pretty dumb at the time). That second heat was pretty painful. Also did two races in 15 degrees F, and three races with both temps and dew points in the 70s.

Best race - Grandmas 2018 - though the PR I ran there was later eclipsed by CIM, I felt I executed Grandma's better - it's probably the closest I've ever come to a perfect marathon. It's a wonderful feeling to finish and know that you ran the absolute best race you had in you that day.

2019 Goals: 2018 was exclusively focused on the half and full distances; though I raced plenty of shorter stuff, I didn't train specifically for them. So this year, I'd like to get some speed back, and break 5:30 again for the mile (getting under 5:20 would be nice if possible). 18:30 5K. Actually, I'd like to get all my shorter race times to match or exceed the equivalents to my half/full times. Also a 83 minute half. Then later return to the marathon to hit 2:55.

Picking up where I left off.

pewow - I was wondering when we were going to see the nordic skiing. Had to look up pickle ball since I had not heard of that before.

Urban - That's a good bit of elevation change for the week.

Smoove - Good to see you get in some cross training. Hope the ijury rehab is going well.

RGM - Once you get the mileage up the holiday indulgences should melt away.

DB - I'm going to be paying close attention to what Tinman has you doing. What the combination he has you do for each workout. I assume those 15min PM runs are prescribed by Tinman as part of the plan.

BHViking - 3573 YTD miles and injury free is awesome. I hope the injury free trend continues in the new year.

LancRunner - Nice week. Hope you kick that cold soon.

Bdubs - Nice week.

Puddles - Big singles during the week. I'm wondering what you have on the race calendar for 2019.

Paradise2019 - Fast paced workouts.

sub5orbust - You appear to be ambitious which can serve as a source of motivation but also cause you to push too hard when you shouldn't. You are still young and have some time even in regards to your HS running career. With that in mind try to be patient and not rush things. It takes time(years) to develop your aerobic fitness and injuries take time to heal as well. My advice for someone like you is to keep up with some running volume in the off season so that you are ready when XC and track season start. This should really pay off if you do the work to maintain fitness and don't over stress things and risk injury when the risk is not justified. Note that this is coming from a 50 YO man who has not run competitively as a teenager.

Bruin - Well if the Yasso 800s are truly a marathon predictor then you sub 2:40 is in the bag.

K&C - Keep an eye on DietBacon since he is currently coached by Tinman. That is what I aam doing at the moment and will try to apply some of that in the coming weeks.

stat - Wow! I am wondering if you have the most races this year for the thread.

darkwave wrote:

Most miserably memorable races - tie between Boston 2018 and the Harrisburg road mile (a straight point-to-point course), where I ran the open masters heat, finished, and immediately jogged a mile back to the start for the elite heat, which started 3 minutes after I arrived at the line. In retrospect, not my brightest idea (I also knew that it was pretty dumb at the time). That second heat was pretty painful. Also did two races in 15 degrees F, and three races with both temps and dew points in the 70s.

Funny, my gf finished right ahead of you in the Harrisburg mile, I did the open heat and snuck under 5. Without a doubt that race was the most painful/uncomfortable feeling I've had post-run, including marathon/ultras.

lots of SE PA runners on this thread I guess.

RunnerSam wrote:

darkwave wrote:

Most miserably memorable races - tie between Boston 2018 and the Harrisburg road mile (a straight point-to-point course), where I ran the open masters heat, finished, and immediately jogged a mile back to the start for the elite heat, which started 3 minutes after I arrived at the line. In retrospect, not my brightest idea (I also knew that it was pretty dumb at the time). That second heat was pretty painful. Also did two races in 15 degrees F, and three races with both temps and dew points in the 70s.

Funny, my gf finished right ahead of you in the Harrisburg mile, I did the open heat and snuck under 5. Without a doubt that race was the most painful/uncomfortable feeling I've had post-run, including marathon/ultras.

lots of SE PA runners on this thread I guess.

Sigh....you marathoners just don't appreciate the beauty of that race. Definitely my favorite local race.

Thanks for your insightful thoughts, darkwave and RunnerSam.

I would not say that the 10 week marathon training plan that I mostly landed on was by design :). It was more because of my laziness towards running and interest in other racket sports that I would not train properly until the race was close.

Right now, I am leaning towards following through with a Hudson-inspired 16 week plan that I have started on. I will try my best to avoid over-training by not pushing the pace on easy runs or workout days and also hope that I am able to peak correctly.

Did 8k on an erg tonight at 2:30/500m. 88 flights of stairs at work and an hour of BBall. I plan on being sore tomorrow.

statfanatic wrote:

RunnerSam wrote:

Funny, my gf finished right ahead of you in the Harrisburg mile, I did the open heat and snuck under 5. Without a doubt that race was the most painful/uncomfortable feeling I've had post-run, including marathon/ultras.

lots of SE PA runners on this thread I guess.

Sigh....you marathoners just don't appreciate the beauty of that race. Definitely my favorite local race.

Oh, it was a great race - I'm hoping to do it again this year. I drove up from the DC area for it, and thought it was well worth the drive. Just...this year I'll likely stick to one heat.

RunnerSam - you're being generous with "right ahead of you" - as I recall she was nowhere in sight when I finished :).

I only really post on this when I'm at work and I haven't been at work for a few weeks...

Anyway, I'll have a read through shortly. Hope everyone had some fantastic family time at Christmas and fantastic drinking time at NYE!

Last week was 70+ miles and my first workout since the motorcycle accident. Both positives. I feel like I can train again.

Also, nice to think about 2018 as a whole. 2300 miles. 3k, 5k, HM PR's. Onwards and upwards.

Right, didn't realise there was a proper format for the Year in Review!

Total Miles - 2311

Total Races - 32 (if including the multiple legs I ran in a couple of road relays)

1 x 800

1 x 1500

2 x 3000

4 x 5000

7 x XC 8k-15k

5 x HM (ugh)

6 x Road Relay legs of various distances

1 x 10k

Assorted others (hour race on track for example)

Total PR's - 3, 4 if you include my awful 2:12 800m debut

800 - 2:12.46 (poor)

3000 - 9:26.78 (should've gone at least 12-15 seconds quicker)

5000 - 15:49.70 (thrilled)

HM - 75:26 (40mph winds in Valencia, good run but felt in better shape at other points of the year)

Best run - 5000m PR. Perfect evening, tons of my mates, local event. Or the 4 legs of the Batavierenrace in Holland, the insanely huge 200km student relay races from one university town to another. 4 legs in 15 hours on zero sleep. Was awake for almost 40 hours total. Madness but can't wait to do it again this May.

Worst run - One of the halves. Probably the 81 minute one. Insane heat, so I jogged the last 10k after just dying.

darkwave wrote:

statfanatic wrote:

Sigh....you marathoners just don't appreciate the beauty of that race. Definitely my favorite local race.

Oh, it was a great race - I'm hoping to do it again this year. I drove up from the DC area for it, and thought it was well worth the drive. Just...this year I'll likely stick to one heat.

RunnerSam - you're being generous with "right ahead of you" - as I recall she was nowhere in sight when I finished :).

That's it. It's on my list for 2019. It will hurt, I haven't raced a mile in a long time, but sounds like fun. There used to be a bunch of mile races around here back in the day... I remember as a kid running one in Millersville and one in Manheim. I think they have gone the way of the rotary phone/Blockbuster...

My year in review...

Total Miles: 1834

Total Races: 7 (6 - 5k's (3 XC), 1 - 5 mile)

Total PRs: 1 - 17:14 5k

Best run: I think the 5 mile I ran. Not a great time, 31:21... ran 29:56 in 2017. But was just back into things after a prolonged injury through the first three months of the year and was just getting back into shape. Thought breaking 32:30 would have been great, but surprised myself, ran really controlled and felt strong but gassed at the end. Left me feeling good towards the summer training/fall.

Worst run: Time wise - Muddy XC race in September. Had 2.5" of rain the night before, was a muddy mess. Led from the start and almost had some HS kid catch me at the end. At one point on the course, there were about 30 geese on the path right ahead of me and I had to scream at them while running to flush them out. Would have made a really cool picture though because they had to flush out right ahead of me through a wooded area and I followed them close behind... felt like I was flying with them.

Other notes:

Most sustained training

Best week total mileage (61)

Longest Run ever (14 miles)

Goals in 2019

Well over 2000 miles run

Focus on planning towards a goal race (never done this really)

Take strength training a bit more seriously

Here's to a fantastic 2019.

RunnerSam wrote:

If we get some more 'year-in-review' type posts I will crunch some numbers on our data.

miles vs AG% comes to mind

2018 statistics:

Total miles: 1,891 (36.3 mpw)

Total races: 9

Best Age Grade: 82.39% (5K)

2018 races:

5K - 19:35 -- AG 80.26% (May)

5K - 19:17 -- AG 81.50% (June)

1-mi track - 5:37.8 -- AG 80.51% (June)

10K - 40:11 -- AG 80.13% (July)

15K - 1:02:36 -- AG 78.59% (August)

5K - 19:13 -- AG 82.39% (August)

5K - 19:24 -- AG 81.62% (September)

15K - 1:01:02 -- AG 81.35% (October)

5K - 19:32 -- AG 81.06% (November)

I started the year following a 3-month layoff and unable to run at all (knee and achilles). I worked on strengthening weak muscles, included some elliptical training, and eventually got back on the roads.

My only time goal for the year was to run sub-19 for 5K, but missed that by 14 seconds. Incredibly, my total mileage was my highest ever for a calendar year, even at only 36 mpw average (a 12-month period in 1982-83 was a bit higher).

Of my nine races, I had one overall win and one overall second-place finish. I won my age group in seven of the races, finishing runner-up to the same competitor in the one-mile track race in June, and the 10K in July.

My worst AG performance was the August 15K on a warm day. My goal was to defend my M55-59 title, which I did. Also, the AG percent wasn't quite as bad as it looks, since it was calculated for age 58, but run only 16 hours before I turned 59.

For 2019, I have abandoned all goals, except perhaps a double-century ride with my brother in June. That will depend on how his cancer effects his ability to train. For me, persistent knee pain has made running pretty much impossible. I overcame it a year ago, but no improvement so far this year, despite attempting the same regimen.

Happy New Year to all!

I do have a training question.

In 2019, I'm looking to incorporate more hill work into my weeks, just to build that strength. I have a lot of hills around here, but I'm trying to think of what would make an "ideal" hill to incorporate into my regimen. I'd like to layer it on the back of a workout or two a week, so that makes it more difficult as there might not be an ideal hill right by a track for instance.

So, long winded way of asking... when looking for a hill to use for "hill work" what does everyone here look for. Is there a grade you look for, length, etc? And on the back of that, how do you all use them... 30 sec hill sprints at like mile pace? What are other ways that they could be used? I know a few have mentioned downhill running as well, what would that look like?

LancRunner wrote:

... how do you all use them... 30 sec hill sprints at like mile pace?

I'm not sure how effective it was, but for 30-second sprints, I would run the steepest hill I could find, and sprint all-out, with walk-down recoveries. In my youth, that was the steep side of a drumlin the local hang-gliding club used. It was three miles from home, so a nice warmup and cooldown.

More recently, I did the same on a dirt-bike trail a couple miles from where I now live. The idea is to move my legs as quickly as possible. Pump the arms. Max heart rate. The steepness and limited range of motion reduces injury risk, compared to sprinting on the flat.

I will chime in from a Daniels perspective.

Daniels would use hill repeats for the same purpose as he uses Repetition work: streamlining form to improve running economy. When you run hills, you tend to get up on your toes, lean forward, and drive your knees and arms straightforward, just as you would when doing faster work on the track. The biggest form difference is that you shorten your stride instead of opening it up. For Daniels, running economy is not just about efficiency on a cellular level, but on a mechanical level. As a result of all of that, he would be less concerned about the specific duration of the recovery, and more focused on making sure you are recovered such that you can maintain good form throughout each repetition. My guess is that 30 second all out sprints uphill would be pretty strenuous. I think you see pewow (our hill sprint specialist!) tending to do shorter hill sprints. In the past, when I have had a chance to do hill sprints, I have found that 10-20 seconds of near top end effort was enough work.

One thing that I would do if I did a lot of hill sprints is to work in some strides on a flat stretch after the workout. The thought there is that if I am going to drop some R work in favor of some hill work, I would want to do the strides to make sure that I continue to have a nice, long, open stride. Practicing that usually comes via rep work for me; but since the hill work would involve shortening my stride, I would want to do strides to get in some extra work in maintaining the length of my stride.

LancRunner wrote:

So, long winded way of asking... when looking for a hill to use for "hill work" what does everyone here look for.

I've forgotten what a hill looks like. Right now my "hill sprints" consist of finding a long driveway up the Mississippi River levee (usually a gradual 100-120m slope) and sprinting ~100m beyond the crest.

When I did have hills, I was a little different than Jeff in that I wanted a gradual slope. The season I set my 5k PR, I spent several sessions in base phase doing 6-8 300m sprints up a gradual hill near the track. I ran sub-4:20 that season and I was typically doing 4:55-5:10 pace up the hill at mile effort. I like a gradual slope because I'm training my legs to run fast, and I don't want a slope so steep that I'm basically stair climbing.

For general strength, I used to like to find hilly routes, especially on long runs. 2000 ft of elevation gain throughout the run wasn't unusual.

Thanks Allen and Smoove.

Smoove, I'm almost thinking of incorporating them in a more layering approach to my quality days a la Tinman... to maybe just excite a few different things in my body, injury prevention, and form. I think the goal is similar to what you describe being both mechanical and biological gains. Appreciate the feedback on the duration, I too think 30 seconds, which would potentially equate to around 150-200 meters could be very strenuous depending on the grade of the hill, so leaning more towards a 10-20 second effort sounds better.

I'd love to be able to, on a workout day, do something like 6x1000, 4-6 hills, 4-6 strides (flat)... it's just finding the right place to do something like that so that I don't have to get in my car and drive to a hill right after the 1ks...

Depending on what you want to do there are actually a few options in the area.

If you want to run 60-90 second longer repeats I think Race Ave by F&M would work well. It's not the steepest hill but you'll still feel it and for some longer efforts I think it would work well.

If you want shorter steeper hills, the hill at Millersville right behind the softball field will do the trick. I wouldn't do anything longer than 30 seconds there though because that thing is brutal.

I've used hill work on and off in the past and do think it can be a useful tool. I think if you want to layer it onto a workout you would essentially be using it similarly to the way Tinman adds 4-6x200 to the end of CV workouts. Given that, I think 15-30 second repeats would be appropriate at roughly mile effort. Another way to layer them into a workout would be something like Nick Willis's Harvard Hills workouts. I believe he typically runs 4-6x Harvard Hill (A ~300m hill at Michigan. I've run one hill workout there and averaged just a tick over 50 so I think it's probably a 42-45 second hill for Nick.), a 2 mile run back to the track, and then some type of interval workout there such as 8x300.

I've used hill work myself both as a primary workout (10-20x 200-300m hills), supplemental work on top of a workout (4-6x 15 second hill sprints after a long tempo or fartlek), and as an alternative to strides (6-8x 100-150m) after a normal run. I'll also seek out some fairly hilly routes a couple times a week and try to run a medium pace over rolling hills. While it's not a specific hill workout, it is a good way to get a little extra quality in without pounding your body too much. I think these are all useful at times, it just depends what else you're doing with the rest of your training and what you're looking to accomplish.

Reference Materials:

RunnerSam wrote:

Sub 6:00 - One of Stat & I club members finished behind you at RnRDC, that is a decent # of miles for so few races. Hopefully you get a healthy 2019

I’m guessing it was the guy in 6th, Ryan? If so, I unwisely powered up the hill at 10k chasing him, and we ran together in 3rd place from around mile 8 to 18. I was acting as a weird tour guide since my breathing felt good and those are my daily stomping grounds. Then he dropped off around 18, I fell apart a few miles later, and two others passed us.

Thanks Stat.

Yea the MU hill is brutal. I used to rock that hill back in my HS days (went to PM, which is right there). I was potentially thinking of using it though as it's right there near the track. The F&M hill is long(er) and gradual so hadn't really thought of that one. I think if I haed over into the neighborhood nearby though, there is one hill I'm thinking of that could work. I could do some work on the track, jog over there (probably about a mile) and get something in.

Plenty of options, but really appreciate the insight and the links.

I'm curious, you mention 3 distinct ways you have, in the past, incorporated them into your training.

1. As a primary workout

2. Supplemental to a workout

3. In place of strides

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've been focused on shorter distances in the past correct (1500, mile, etc)? At least for track season. So I'm curious what you were working to accomplish using each of these ways in the past. Or, were these incorporated more in the XC season? Just for my edification as I look to incorporate them into my training...

Thanks again, this is great info.