Road Racing and Training Thread Week ending Dec 9 2018

Jeremy R wrote:

ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

So apparently I'm gonna be managing a fairly large project for my company that is gonna require me to travel almost weekly for the next 2-3 months. Essentially I'm flying out Mondays and flying home Fridays. It's one of those opportunities that could really help my career, but at the expense of the family. Wife is supportive, but I'm gonna miss her and the kids. Gonna be long hours where I have to catch up on my other work at night (hard to find replacements or support).

I guess the MOST IMPORTANT question is, how do I keep my running going consistently or do I just cut back and run when I can? What "workouts" do I need to keep to maintain 5K/10K fitness?

*sarcasm above. already thinking about missing the fam

Ooof. I think major factors are going to be:

a) are you traveling to the same place each week, or shifting between locations? If it's the same place, it will be easier to set up a routine away from home - figuring out good places for workouts, etc.

b) will you just be working, or will there be a social component as well (those evening drinks and dinner with coworkers and clients things that some people claim to enjoy)? I find mandatory social activity during work trips to be the biggest interference with my running.

I think this might be a good time to focus more on shorter workouts for speed development, if you can find a place to do it safely.

One thing that's really worked for me when I travel - I try to stay in a hotel near a major shopping mall. That's because nearly all shopping malls have a perimeter drive about a mile long that is either flat or gently rolling, well lit at all times of day/night, and patrolled by security. If you can't find anywhere else to run, you can just do loops of the shopping mall and do time based workouts (3:00 on, 2:00 off, etc....).

JCPP2020 - Welcome to the thread.

Bruin - Good looking week. Just noticed your weight, that's light.

Kid B - Saw your remark about the Garmin race predictor. I would not pay much attention to that. It's like a broken clock that has the correct time twice a day. It may be right for one person, but will be completely wrong for others. It has my predicted 5k at 17:01 and marathon at 2:43:12. I wish...

RGM - Bintang... Did you mention going to Bali? I've been to Indonesia twice for work back in the 90's. I ended up in Jakarta and Medan, but would have really liked to have been sent to Bali. Hope you had a good time.

stat - As long as you do enough to keep the motor running.

RunninReed, bearcatRun1998 - Welcome to the thread.

GT - Sounds like a plan.

WH - I don't know if I would have done first run in the 4% as a race, but then again it wasn't goal race. Try them again in a training run. Your hamstring/calf issue could have been any number of things, but I would suspect the lack of a decent taper. I had to go back and look at last week so you had that huge special block followed by two solid weeks of training.

Jeremy R wrote:

ARRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

So apparently I'm gonna be managing a fairly large project for my company that is gonna require me to travel almost weekly for the next 2-3 months. Essentially I'm flying out Mondays and flying home Fridays. It's one of those opportunities that could really help my career, but at the expense of the family. Wife is supportive, but I'm gonna miss her and the kids. Gonna be long hours where I have to catch up on my other work at night (hard to find replacements or support).

I guess the MOST IMPORTANT question is, how do I keep my running going consistently or do I just cut back and run when I can? What "workouts" do I need to keep to maintain 5K/10K fitness?

*sarcasm above. already thinking about missing the fam

My two cents:

1. Select hotels based on proximity to good places to run. LRC is a good “where should I run” resource.

2. Plan flights around your running schedule when you can.

3. Avoid time-consuming dinners. Go for a run instead then get something quick afterwards

4. Treadmills are your friend.

5. Family time becomes free time, so you may actually end up with more opportunities to run.

6. Travel and stress take a lot out of you, so don’t be surprised if your workouts temporarily suffer.

Jeremy - Stat's strava is scary. Haha. Runs at 11pm at night... he's all over the country... sure shows some dedication/insanity/whatever we all call it.

I've found that when I travel, I can get up early and run. The beauty of being away from the family (I miss them too...) is that there are no morning requirements. I don't have to make the kids breakfast, get them brushing teeth, changing clothes, ready for daycare, etc. Not sure the ages of yours, but that can turn into a time suck in the morning. Anyway, without the responsibility, you have TIME! Find a loop as another suggested, malls are good, neighborhoods you can usually mark off a loop, etc. It can get repetitive, but I tend to find one route and run it over and over again. I'm not a big morning runner, but when I'm traveling, I find that evenings turn into dinner, a drink, more work, etc.

Anyway, my two cents FWIW.

Stat - You a beast.

Allen - Signed up for Chicago and going for a fast time. A lot of the year will be geared for that, with long runs starting up in a few weeks. But first half of the year mostly 8K and 10K.

Jewbacca - Those are great old photos and I knew that Spokane has had a great history with running and XC. Agree, that would have been a better venue for runners. Also, my son went to WWU. We visited campus with his brother and a couple teammates, I liked Pee Wee's approach and philosophy. My son didn't run in college but cycled instead. Nice school.

So here is where I am pondering what to do for Boston while I have some time to decide what to do for a training plan. This was my first year using any sort of reasonable training plan for both a spring and fall marathon. Both times I used the Daniels 2Q. For the spring I did the full 18 week plan and for the fall I did the last 14 weeks of the 18 week plan. Each cycle had its own unique adjustments to the plan. Both marathons resulted in a PR and it is hard to argue with success. However this last build I was almost always in a perpetual state of fatigue. While this was different from the spring cycle, the spring cycle had a few more bumps in the road where I took a step down in training as well as a mini taper for a race and some other adjustments that the fall build did not have. I did all of the fall workouts based upon feel at no point did I think that I could have bumped up my VDOT and paces. Is this par for the course? Is this how others feel during the build up for a marathon? The reason I am asking is I am debating on using the 2Q plan again for Boston or possibly use the Daniels 4 week cycle where the every forth week is week of just easy running but with a higher weekly mileage. It was strange this time to have my training paces be so far off from actual race pace. I would estimate that it was 5-10 sec for the spring and as much as 15-20 for the fall. I am open to thoughts and suggestions.

Yeah, I pretty much knew I was tempting fate by lacing them up the first time in a race but as you said, it wasn't an A race anyway. Figure I'll take them out one or two more times in training and see what the response is. Any suggestions on where might be the best place to work them in a training run? I have 25 miles at 95%MP (these next 4 weeks are going to be brutal) so thought about maybe starting in my training shoes and switching over to the Vaporflys after around 10-15 miles. Otherwise I'm looking at easy runs, 20k of alternations, and things like 5x3 reps; all stuff that has "off" paces probably slower than I think I want to run in the shoe. I can't speak yet for the VF but the Zoomfly seems to be not suited for paces much slower than around 6:50 or I get some kick back.

For my training on Vaporfly's, I tend to just do 1 run of 6-7 miles at somewhere between MP and HMP about 3-4 weeks before the marathon. That gives me enough feedback about whether the shoe is the right fit for me, or whether the MP I am attempting feels right for that shoe, or whether the laces open up, etc.

In my first run in the Vaporfly Flyknit, I found that the arch of my feet hangs over the footbed which gave me major blisters in the arch. Took Still Improving's suggestion to replace the inserts with something that is broader - which worked out fine at CIM.

If you have something like 7 easy and then 7@MP, it will suit perfectly to change to the Vaporfly midway, IMO. I would really not want to waste the Vaporfly for training runs because it is pretty darn expensive.

To your other point about paces, I have found more benefit from the Vaporfly while running 10K pace (6:25 for me) than MP (7:05 ish). Having said that, the benefit that I get from running in Vaporfly's in the marathon is that my feet and legs are much less beaten up after the race.

Just wanted to +1 this, in my case it's more lower legs and feet than knee issues, but this sounds like a very good description of the exact cue I tell myself when I can feel my form getting lazy. As a primary benefit my stride feels a lot stronger and more fluid when I'm locked in correctly. Considerations inspired by Running Rewired again...

Still Improving wrote:It was strange this time to have my training paces be so far off from actual race pace. I would estimate that it was 5-10 sec for the spring and as much as 15-20 for the fall. I am open to thoughts and suggestions.

Were your training paces slower than your actual race pace would predict? or faster?

If you are racing at a level above what is projected by your training paces, then you are doing something very right.

I do think we all differ in how far we can dig during a training cycle. and still rebound. Some people just bounce higher, others (like myself) fizzle.

Still Improving wrote:

I did all of the fall workouts based upon feel at no point did I think that I could have bumped up my VDOT and paces. . . . Is this par for the course? Is this how others feel during the build up for a marathon? It was strange this time to have my training paces be so far off from actual race pace. I would estimate that it was 5-10 sec for the spring and as much as 15-20 for the fall. I am open to thoughts and suggestions.

I think I have mentioned this before, but the way I strive to feel during a marathon training cycle, and what I tell the runners that I work with they should feel like, is to "feel stretched thin, but not broken." That general malaise that you might have been feeling that caused you to run slower than VDOT would suggest would not concern me all that much. In fact, it being worse for your fall cycle doesn't surprise me - it was a tough summer all around the country, and going with back to back cycles is tough for a lot of people (I know for a fact that there is absolutely no way that I could pull it off). Also, anecdotally, my paces were 5-10 seconds slower this last cycle than in any of my other 3 marathon cycles - it is just what my body (and the weather) dictated. It caused me to reflect quite a bit, but it also didn't shock me.

Gordon,

I gotta pick up Running Rewired. I've heard Jay D on a lot of podcasts and been really intrigued on what he has to say. I'm most likely going to get it heading into the Xmas break.

also thanks for all the feedback regarding training and traveling.

This is a dynamic project so it's possible that the scope could be reduced as well... so I may not have to travel as much.

I'm not sure if it is all going to the same place unfortunately.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

Pappy wrote:

After some research, I decided to try walking keeping my hips forward more. Basically changing the pitch of the pelvis so the hip sockets are more forward.

Just wanted to +1 this ...

Thanks. I've been struggling with those sort of posture issues for years. I try to rotate the hips forward, flatten the lower back, chest forward. Knee lift, back-kick, stay over the center of gravity. Dedicated core strengthening would go a long ways toward aiding these attempts, but of course those efforts are the first to go when time is short.

Another issue is various injuries (shoulder, lower back) that limit those exercises. Also, I'm usually reluctant to fatigue muscles I will be exerting on the job that day or the next -- carrying drywall, or bags of sand, or mortar, or 100-pound boxes of tile, etc, up flights of stairs.

After a decent run yesterday, and pretty extreme discomfort ever since, it's clear I need to back off and try to get ahead of the knee issues again. Aargh. Perfect weather today -- light winds and 35 degrees -- and I'll be sweating indoors on the elliptical this afternoon.

Well, now is the time, during base training, rather than in the midst of the cycle.

Thanks darkwave and Smoove!

Just to add a bit more color. During this fall cycle I felt like things were stagnated since the training paces were pretty much the same week after week. I just seemed to be in perpetual state of fatigue. In the final weeks I was beginning to worry that I might have over trained, but put my mind to ease considering that I did not have signs of over training like an elevated resting HR or sleeplessness. In the end everything worked out and you guys have confirmed that is is normal.

I think for Boston I may go with a 2Q inspired plan of my own design.

hahahaha.

If you guys have seen Without Limits... you remember Bowerman telling Pre, "Tuck your pelvis under you, like at the moment of deepest penetration"

I figured I would chime in on hip stability and glutes.

I don't do any exercises specifically for posture, but work on core and hip strength as well as hip mobility on a weekly basis as long as I don't get lazy. When I do my running workouts I feel the fatigue/soreness in the usual legs muscles like quads and so forth, but I also feel it in my glutes so I have to assume that my glutes are active/firing. I don't think I ever noticed any soreness in the glutes prior to when I incorporated the hip and core work as a part of my regular training. So, I suspect this is the result of the hip and core work that I do. While it may not help specifically with any running posture problems you may have you can work your glutes without too much stress on other muscles. Things like donkey kicks, fire hydrants and clams should do a pretty good job at targeting your glutes. Exercises that require standing and balancing on one leg engage the muscles in your hips to maintain hip stability and help with balance.

Hi all! New here joining in on these threads, hoping to help log and keep myself accountable for the upcoming year.

M24

PRs: 17:40 5K, 2:46 full

Background: Ran in middle/high school, very amateur w/ PB of 5:10 in the mile, started running again at 23

2019 Goals: NYC Half, Boston, NYCM, hoping to land sub 2:40 during the year, or whatever I'm capable of

Next race: local 10K in NYC early Jan

This week's goals: Rebuilt, haven't run much since Chicago. Completed an Ironman in November and started at 35 miles the week previous to this one

Next week's goals: Boldly and aggressively ride easy miles into a 100 mile week to try to build a base for next year's training, previously peaked at 60-65mpw for Chicago

M - AM: 6 @ 8:13, PM: 6 @ 8:20

T - AM: 10 @ 8:04, PM: 3.2 @ 9:16

W - 10 * 8:02

T - Flight from West cost to East coast getting stuck overnight in a layover due to delays... no run

F - 9 @ 7:46 with last 10 mins going from 6:30 -> 5:50

S - 10.4 @ 7:51

S - 5.1 @ 8:06

Total: 60

Currently in the middle of my dash to a 100 mile week and still feeling pretty good, at 48 miles today after a double and still have 4 days left!

Welcome to the thread Jot! Which IM, AZ?