The Magnificent Ones: Lasse Viren

But if there is always risk in transfusions, there is no real reason why he blood doped other than just before the major games. Whereas the benefit of blood doping starts to diminish gradually after a few days so, from his 1972 performances, it is obvious that his peak lasted for almost three months with WR and close to WR times every second week:

July 25, 5000m - 13:19.0, third fastest time ever.

August 4, 10000m - 27:52.4, fastest time of the year, almost complete solo run, beat the second guy by over a round.

August 14, 2-mile - 8:14.0, world record

September 3, 10000m - 27:38.4, world record

September 14, 5000m - 13:16.4, world record

And if he had had problems in blood doping, why he did he use it only in 1972, `76 and `80?

Aragon wrote:

And if he had had problems in blood doping, why he did he use it only in 1972, `76 and `80?

Should read "if he had no..."

Subway Surfers wrote:

There must be an answer wrote:

[quote]Aragon wrote:

If one argues that he blood doped multiple times during the olympic years, the argument that he didn't bother to use the method in 1973, 74, 75, 77, 78 or 79 looks very strange.

Maybe he was superstitious? ?

Or maybe he just blood doped to win Olympic gold medals?

Nah...who in their right mind would blood dope to win Olympic gold medals? Remember rekrunner says it all about "altitude training." ?

Armstronglivs wrote:

flightless birds wrote:

Your opinion was also indignant and vacuous.

Come on, you can do better than that. Well, perhaps not.

No need to.

keepthisinmind wrote:

Blood doping was not banned back then. He denies it, but he would be in the right if he did it. That is the difference between him and Lance.

It wasn't against the rules then but blood-doping wouldn't have been subsequently been banned if it wasn't deemed to provide an unfair advantage. And it wasn't that the athletes doing it were open about. They were aware of how it would look if it was known they were doping - even if legally. If Viren was blood-doping it's possible there are four gold medals he might not have had.

The comparison with Lance on this thread is becoming rather strained; like saying that even if Viren had done what some have suggested he had he really wasn't a "bad" doper - like Lance was shown to be. The original point about Lance that is relevant to the Viren situation is that public denials of doping tell us very little about whether the athlete concerned doped: they always deny it until caught and even then they may continue to insist on their innocence . The "contaminated beef" argument.

flightless birds wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Come on, you can do better than that. Well, perhaps not.

No need to.

Read, can't. Your comments are the equivalent of blowing raspberries in a playground. Your diapers need changing.

Aragon wrote:

... but Lance made admissions of doping that found their way into articles and books well before the USADA case, some half a dozen people claimed having heard him confessing his PED use (1995, 1996, 1999 and 2001)

Yeah...but Lance denied that he ever confessed to some half a dozen or so people and denounced them as not knowing what they were taking about.

How you forgotten these classic Lance moments when he made the rounds in the media? I know I believed him back then. My thinking was why would a stage 4 cancer survivor fool around with PEDs - no way I thought Lance would dope. I chalked off his success to exceptional genetics and clean living. ?

Enjoy these classics - Lance at his best!

To summarize in two questions the difference between the two.

Question 1: Has admitted doping publicly?

Question 2: Has admitted doping privately (and the information is published)?

Lance (as of 2005) 1) No. 2) Yes.

Viren (as of 2018) 1) No. 2) No.

Armstronglivs wrote:

canoosite wrote:

Why does who I am impact the morality of my actions? You have a problem with people blood doping in the 70s, not just elites.

I'm sorry - did I invent blood doping as an issue? You were unaware of the controversy about this surrounding Viren and other athletes in the '70's, that resulted in an eventual ban of the practice? Must have been all my doing. Idiot.

What? I never indicated you invented blood doping as an issue. I gave a simple analogy to point out the slippery slope of your argument - that it was immoral to blood dope while legal because it ended up being illegal - by pointing out a current performance enhancer that is legal. Idiot.

I don't remember when I first learned about blood doping and the improvements it could potentially lead to. But I do remember that my first reaction was to wonder if I could find a place to do it. Why not? It was legal and would maybe make me a lot faster. From there as far as I can recall, resting inertia took over. I had no idea where I could have it done, it would probably cost more than I could have afforded, and even huge improvements were not likely to make me a national class athlete. So I never did more than ponder the idea. But if I'd thought it would have given me a realistic shot at making an Olympic team? I may well have searched a lot harder for a place that would do it though it also occurred to me that many of the guys who were faster than I was would also get it done and still be faster than me. So , maybe not.

Again, why not? It was legal. It wasn't cheating at the time. Later on someone decided that it conveyed an unfair advantage and it became illegal. I don't know if I was still considering doing it or not when that happened but once it became illegal I absolutely would not have considered doing it because by then it was cheating and I don't cheat.

But let's say I had blood doped and it was wildly successful. Let's say it got me into the '76 Olympic team. Would I have acknowledged doing it? I doubt it. By then there was a real stigma attached to it, still is, hence the constantly recurring threads here. And while I would not believe I'd done anything wrong, I don't know that I'd feel like dealing with constant accusations that I had and may very well be vague when the topic, as it applied to me, came up. So I'm not surprised that athletes who did blood dope when it was legal may want to keep doing it to themselves.

And yes, the comparisons with Armstrong are strained and overdone. Armstrong did things that were clearly outside the rules of his sport. Viren did not.

Armstronglivs wrote:

flightless birds wrote:

No need to.

Read, can't. Your comments are the equivalent of blowing raspberries in a playground. Your diapers need changing.

Vacuous raspberry alert.

You're still salty 40 years later because an Olympic Champ was sub par due to injuries before your demanding gaze. OOOOK.

The preceding post from HRE is excellent and from one who has been there and can give an insight into a competitor's mindset.

It explains why I think Viren gets treated unfairly in this matter, even if he did blood dope. (which I don't think he did)

To lump him in with the likes of Armstrong is just all wrong, imo.

flightless birds wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Read, can't. Your comments are the equivalent of blowing raspberries in a playground. Your diapers need changing.

Vacuous raspberry alert.

You're still salty 40 years later because an Olympic Champ was sub par due to injuries before your demanding gaze. OOOOK.

Does anyone know if Viren did a running tour of NZ back in '77?

If so, that would confirm my suspicions that this armstronglivs dude is a kiwi crybaby, still pissed off that Viren smoked his heroes down the stretch in Montreal, lol.

sky wrote:

flightless birds wrote:

Vacuous raspberry alert.

You're still salty 40 years later because an Olympic Champ was sub par due to injuries before your demanding gaze. OOOOK.

Does anyone know if Viren did a running tour of NZ back in '77?

If so, that would confirm my suspicions that this armstronglivs dude is a kiwi crybaby, still pissed off that Viren smoked his heroes down the stretch in Montreal, lol.

Lass Viren progression according to his IAAF profile:

1500 METRES VIEW GRAPH

1976 3:44.22 Turku (FIN) 04 JUL 1976

OUTDOOR

ONE MILE VIEW GRAPH

1976 4:02.89 Stockholm (SWE) 09 AUG 1976

OUTDOOR

3000 METRES VIEW GRAPH

1978 7:57.24 Helsinki (FIN) 25 MAY 1978

OUTDOOR

TWO MILES VIEW GRAPH

1976 8:21.47 Philadelphia, PA (USA) 04 AUG 1976

1974 8:25.68 London (GBR) 13 SEP 1974

OUTDOOR

5000 METRES VIEW GRAPH

1980 13:30.88 Zürich (SUI) 13 AUG 1980

1979 13:43.08 Turku (FIN) 25 JUL 1979

1978 13:33.76 Helsinki (FIN) 15 JUN 1978

1976 13:24.76 Montreal (CAN) 30 JUL 1976

1975 13:34.51 Helsinki (FIN) 25 JUN 1975

1974 13:24.57 Roma (ITA) 08 SEP 1974

1972 13:26.42 München (GER) 10 SEP 1972

1971 13:38.60 Helsinki (FIN) 14 AUG 1971

OUTDOOR

10,000 METRES VIEW GRAPH

1980 27:50.46 Moskva (URS) 27 JUL 1980

1979 28:04.69 Bruxelles (BEL) 04 SEP 1979

1976 27:40.38 Montreal (CAN) 26 JUL 1976

1974 28:29.23 Roma (ITA) 02 SEP 1974

1973 28:25.19 Stockholm (SWE) 01 SEP 1973

1972 27:38.35 München (GER) 03 SEP 1972

1971 28:33.12 Helsinki (FIN) 10 AUG 1971

OUTDOOR

25 KILOMETRES VIEW GRAPH

1978 1:15:40 Helsinki (FIN) 29 APR 1978

OUTDOOR

MARATHON VIEW GRAPH

1976 2:13:11

People forget how talented Lasse Viren was, with very little training at BYU he ran a sub 14 minute 5000m.

Big fan of lasse viren and debunking letsrun myths wrote:

OUTDOOR

10,000 METRES VIEW GRAPH

1980 27:50.46 Moskva (URS) 27 JUL 1980

1979 28:04.69 Bruxelles (BEL) 04 SEP 1979

1976 27:40.38 Montreal (CAN) 26 JUL 1976

1974 28:29.23 Roma (ITA) 02 SEP 1974

1973 28:25.19 Stockholm (SWE) 01 SEP 1973

1972 27:38.35 München (GER) 03 SEP 1972

1971 28:33.12 Helsinki (FIN) 10 AUG 1971

I think I spotted a pattern ?

To be honest, I don't really care if he blood-doped or not. In the first place, it wasn't illegal at the time. More importantly, though, it wasn't that he seemed so physically better than everyone else as it seemed like he was tactically smarter and, when push came to final kick, tougher.

As for why did he only do well in the Olympics, Al Oerter won 4 golds in the DT with nothing comparable in between. When there wasn't much/any money in the sport, people really did peak for the Olympics.

Bill Rodgers also stated that he would have blood doped much like HRE described.

Aragon wrote:

To summarize in two questions the difference between the two.

Question 1: Has admitted doping publicly?

Question 2: Has admitted doping privately (and the information is published)?

Lance (as of 2005) 1) No. 2) Yes.

Viren (as of 2018) 1) No. 2) No.

You are fixated on this. What is the point you are trying to make?