Road Race and Training Thread - Week Ending 10-14-2018

RunnersFix

I am guessing you are going for OTQ at CIM? but I don't think you mentioned it.

Two good workouts, did the 3x3 myself last week (although 50s slower). The rest of the week shows discipline I have not found within myself yet.

I know you did a big LR last Sunday (and another LR during the week last week), is that the reason you skipped it this week? (although I suppose you could be going off a non-7 day schedule). With 6 weeks left to go I figured it would be a staple from now till the taper.

-RunnerSam

A lot of people would say overall volume is much more important than the singular long run anyways!

Thats some great work RunnersFix... get em at CIM

Coach Jeff ROC - 68 miles, don't beat yourself up! Better less than more for our paces, imho. I like your groove. Do you run on the roads, with traffic, or do you find stretches without autos to run?

TDR - Has your weather "broken" yet? Here in AZ it finally got cool enough that mornings are actually chilly. It helps that there's about 12 hours of darkness again. +1 for running in the morning and another +1 for finding a group that will run with you at that time. I just found a group that will run "with" me at 3am, which is kind of cool. Definitely makes me feel less crazy.

Theodore - Nice race! Something tells me you'll soon crush your 5k PR.

Smoove - Good job getting across the busy street. Hope you are doing well. Congrats again for the epic marathon in Chicago. I'm still vicariously basking in that amazing run.

Stone Cutter - Good week. What's the goal with the short rest 400s? That looks like a surprisingly difficult workout given that short rest.

jewbacca - killer week! Love your 5x1k workout; you really ratchet down the pace there. How old are the kids? When do you run?

th3bt - I hear ya on the tradeoff between career and running. Throw in family, too.

AJ - Good recovery week. Kudos again to you for killing it in Chicago. Don't think you've squeezed the rock yet...

OR - Dude, you are becoming a monster. That 20-miler is a feat.

RunGUy Midwest - Good luck Sunday!

Matthias - Welcome back!

Allen1969 - I loved the race report. We have all been in your shoes wrt self-dealing during a race. Congrats on the AG win.

Gotta get back to work. Hope everybody is having a great week!

Don't know how often RunnersFix checks in on his thread, so I'll answer some of those questions since I know some of the answers.

I'm not sure what his time goal is at CIM, but he already has an OTQ from a marathon in May. You can do the math on 5:12 pace - it works out to 2:16 low, which isn't out of range by any means (he ran the 2:18:2x in May after having flight issues and having to drive 9 hours to get to his race venue).

And your gut was right - he isn't on a 7 day week, so the lack of a long run was just due to the vagaries of timing.

9 or 10 day? How does the LR fit into the work schedule?

team1 wrote:

TDR - Has your weather "broken" yet? Here in AZ it finally got cool enough that mornings are actually chilly. It helps that there's about 12 hours of darkness again. +1 for running in the morning and another +1 for finding a group that will run with you at that time. I just found a group that will run "with" me at 3am, which is kind of cool. Definitely makes me feel less crazy.

I’m in the same boat as Smoove and Jeremy here in Florida. The heat is unrelenting but honestly I’m not looking forward to 40 degrees at 4am if and when we get a cold front like that this winter. After spending my entire life in Miami I’m a huge wuss in temps like that.

Pretty sure that he has a long run every 8-10 days, but some of his workout days are also 20 mile sessions.

Sorry for my lack of comments this week, guys. Still some catching up to do. I’ll try to get some more in this weekend.

But wanted to chime in real quick on a couple things.

99% sure RunnersFix is on a 9 day cycle.

1 - Tempo Run

2 - Easy double

3 - Easy double

4 - MP/threshold repeats

5 - Easy double

6 - Easy double

7 - Long Run

8 - Easy double

9 - Easy double

What’s amazing to me is the amount of easy volume he can maintain in a week while still performing the quality of his workouts.

As Smoove can also attest, this is actually a lower volume week for him. I have seen 140-145 miles from him in the past. I also agree he has a much better marathon in him than his PR.

Team 1 - The short rest quarters are like CV-style repeats. A hallmark of Ed Eyestone’s training, and a shorter version of the type of interval training popularized by Tinman recently.

In peak training I will hit up to 25 x 400m off :30 rests, and the average pace is a really good indicator of 10k ability.

Jeremy - I have not forgotten about your request.

team1 wrote:

Coach Jeff ROC - 68 miles, don't beat yourself up! Better less than more for our paces, imho. I like your groove. Do you run on the roads, with traffic, or do you find stretches without autos to run?

Thanks for the support. Definitely not gonna beat myself up. On this HM cycle, I've actually done better volume than I did on my full marathon PR. At the equivalent spot in the training cycle last December, my weekly average was between 70 and 80k, but I've been north of 90k and even 100k for multiple weeks. This was a secondary goal of my current HM cycle...Boston 2019 is in the back of my mind and I'd like to be able to train in the 70-80 miles per week, at least for a few peak weeks, if my body can take it. So far, I feel as strong as I ever have.

As for running routes, I live on the very northwest edge of Taipei, right up against the mountains, so I can literally step out my door and begin running 10k straight up a mountain road...or trails if I want to. Or I can go in the other direction down to the Keelung River, about 2 miles away via back roads. From there, I can run east along the river through a series of parks for 20 uninterrupted miles or west for 10 uninterrupted miles-- all automobile-free! When I commute home from my office in southwest Taipei, I can either slice straight through the city (shortest distance, but running through the heart of a densely populated city), or run 4k north to the river, then east along the river for as far as I want to. I'll be taking the second option later today: 4k warmup to the river with drills while waiting for traffic lights... then 4x3k along the river... then leave the river and head home.

Astros v Sox has me running later in the day... The games are live at 8am here.

Tall dark roast wrote:

team1 wrote:

TDR - Has your weather "broken" yet? Here in AZ it finally got cool enough that mornings are actually chilly. It helps that there's about 12 hours of darkness again. +1 for running in the morning and another +1 for finding a group that will run with you at that time. I just found a group that will run "with" me at 3am, which is kind of cool. Definitely makes me feel less crazy.

I’m in the same boat as Smoove and Jeremy here in Florida. The heat is unrelenting but honestly I’m not looking forward to 40 degrees at 4am if and when we get a cold front like that this winter. After spending my entire life in Miami I’m a huge wuss in temps like that.

We had no cool days before Chicago but the last 7 since Michael skirted by have been sublime. 6:55 pace is suddenly the new 7:30. Where you been fall?

RRR - Big congrats to you on the half PR!

Coach Jeff ROC - A simple, traditional formula is the key to success i think! 5 x 2K is a solid workout, glad to hear that it treated you well.

TDR - I hear you on the early starts. My commute to work (if I choose to run) is at 4:45am ready for a 6-6 shift and I generally feel nice and loose throughout the day too!

Theodore - Seems like you put your hip issues to one side following the race on Sunday! Was that a PR?

Smoove - A well earned week off running. I'd love for my first marathon to be full of grit just like you showed at Chicago. Great to see you prove those who doubted your fitness wrong!

Stone - A pleasantly consistent week! Thursday does indeed sound hectic. Hope all is well...

Jewbacca - very impressive week of training, I like the mixture of distance, time and hills in your 1st session and the fast 400s at the end of your 2nd one.

AJ - Same to you as I mentioned to Smoove, enjoy the recovery! And well done again on a solid marathon

OR - Quality finish to that 20 miler! You are in some form atthe moment.... exciting things coming your way (fingers crossed)

RunGuy - All the best for your marathon on Sunday!

Allen - Good effort in the 15K! A nice, consistent race and some well earned dollar!

GMFAH - Nice back-to-back K repeats and 2 hour long run! Good cutdown too... love those negative split sessions!

cocoon - Good week post half marathon. make sure that calf doesn't get worse!

stat - Solid mileage and pace, especially on your long run! Rapid...

pewow - Great to see you're still putting in those training weeks with plenty of variation. And congrats on the 15K! A very good effort

sub 6 - take it steady man!

Working Harder - Nice long run to cap off the week! Should be interesting following your training as I am looking at a Canova style approach myself! We'll see...

Still Improving - Again, a nice long run! But make sure your aches and pains don't get worse... I got Patella Tendonitis this spring, and it was not pretty!

RunnerSam - Nice quality within those 90 miles.

Slo-Twitch - Great to see you are still bashing out solid training! Well ran in your half... smart training is the best training! I would say the moderate mileage is more down to being injury prone though!

Krishna - A solid 30min tempo at what sounds like true tempo effort :)

hantph - Good consistency this week

Jeremy R - sorry to hear about the parkrun not going to plan but you got a decent longrun-workout out of it at least!

Andy - love the 18 miler a week after a marathon. For some that would be impossible/difficult hahaha. Congrats on the PR at Chicago!

Bruin - Very good week!

PutoMiudo - nice 800s and tempo, and congrats on finishing university :)

HHH - 3 good workouts this week (4 if you count the drunk run) ;)

Kid B - good luck with your training :)

Runnersfix - No words...

team1, Matthias - Thanks very much, guys. I hope to pull off a feat at Richmond (fingers crossed).

Way behind on comments. Nearly all my mental bandwith this time of year is taken up by work and Halloween decorations.

Thanks everyone for the kind words on the knee. There's still a small, visible bump on the knee cap, but it's getting better about as quickly as I could've hoped. My stride is a little off, especially as I'm warming up, and I've gotten up to 6 miles at a normal pace (6:45ish) without significant pain, although I wouldn't push it too much more. But 13.1 at a very easy pace (11:00 or so) should be manageable on Sunday. I can always start walking or bail, although I might get stuck in Canada.

GFMAH - I like the Canova long run progression. I've casually done things similar to that in the past, and may refer back to that as a template this next cycle (although I'm trying to do more hilly long runs this winter).

SC - Where in a cycle would those short rest quarters fit, or would the recur, with the workout getting longer? I did something similar to that once several years ago, a few weeks before a marathon: 30x400 w/ 100 float (about 30s) around 10k pace, followed by The Great Pumpkin on ABC. Killer workout, but probably too hard.

RGMW - Looks like it will be cold and crisp Sunday morning, but at least the rain should be through by race time. Go get it.

Thanks, Sub 6! Forecast is 34 and chance of flurries at the gun. I'll take that over 64 any day. I've fashioned a pair of home made running sleeves out of old ski socks for the first few miles.

Glad to hear you're getting back into it. Have fun pacing the wife this weekend and keep the recovery going!

Sub 6:00 - I wish you nothing but the very best, and am glad that the knee is coming along nicely. Getting stuck in Canada would not be all that bad, but I think you will make it back to the good ol’ US of A.

RunGuy Midwest - In case you don't get back on LR before the race, Good Luck in Grand Rapids, maybe I will see if my sister (Kalamazoo) will be in town. Go see the artprize left-overs if you can.

as for RunnerFix training - 9 day cycle is interesting, I always figured it was for older runners, but during this marathon cycle I realized it might be better for marathons since the volume of quality in each workout is so much its easy to skip the second workout of the week (and thus less overall # of workouts/month). I've also learned its hard to get enough sleep when I double, basically have to wake up 80 min earlier than normal to get 5-6miles in (although if I went longer in the morning the 'lost time' would be a smaller ratio relative to the run). I've been opting to get the sleep in the mornings and go longer at night.

-RunnerSam

Sub-6 - Best of luck getting back into it with the knee, my GF has been out with knee issues for about 6 weeks now, has just started running a few miles a day, had to scrap the whole fall racing plans.

-RunnerSam

Allen you will be competitive at the Grand Prix, although some races are fairly deep. It just depends on who shows up.

And speaking of half tights and conditions at Tulsa last year, it was about 30 and windy at the start last year. I wore half tights and by mile 2 couldn't feel my legs. Year before it was in the 80s, but I hope this year it will be about half way between those.

More comments:

team 1 - Wow, sounds like quite a downhill run last week. Good luck if you are still doing the 23 miler today.

stat - Nice long run to cap off your week last week. Moving, as usual.

hantph96 - Still building nicely. I love how you are adding snippets of quality here and there.

Jeremy - Sorry to hear you are still suffering with tough weather conditions. I will probably post the Canova long run recommendations for your tomorrow, since I am not sure if you are still checking in on the thread this week. My apologies for not getting back to sooner. Crazy week at work and home for me (and finally being more consistent in my own running!)

Andy - Bouncing back nicely from Chicago, I see. Not a bad plan ( the lack of a structured plan) for the rest of the fall. Your prior fitness alone will carryover into training. Sometimes good to have that mental break of not pressuring yourself to follow a schedule or paces.

Bruin - 2:45 looks like the softest goal in history based on your training. I was in near 2:45 shape this past spring and I know I couldn't race a single 10:17 2 mile let alone run one as the third in a set of three.

PutoMiudo - Congrats on the thesis! And your newfound freedom.

HHH - Once survived a 12 mile drunk run the early morning hours of my sister's wedding. Would love to tell you how great it felt, but I don't remember most of it.

Allen - Regarding the 200s in 38 secs... Most runners are usually able to run their 200s at about mile pace race effort. So if you were comfortably clicking of 38s, that puts you around 5:10 mile pace, which is flying. Which is why I say you haven't lost inherent speed, as it relates to marathon training. You are looking to hold 6:5x/mi pace for 26.2 miles next year. My point is you don't have to focus so much on formal speedwork because you already have it. You just need to touch on it now and then with strides or short pickups. What you need to focus your attention on is all of the work that happens between 6:30-7:15/mi. That's how you will get to sub-3.

Kid B - Love the structure to your week. Lots of great work at a variety of paces and distances.

bearcat - Welcome, and nice training week you posted. Solid 8k for muddy conditions, especially for a bigger guy.

RunnersFix - Inspiring stuff, my friend. I feel your day to drop a serious bomb is coming soon.

Sub-6:00 - Your instincts are correct. That was an introduction to that style of workout, one that could be progressed to 20 x 400m off :30 recoveries at around 8k pace, or up to 25 x 400m off :30 recoveries at around 10k pace. Both are actually pretty great predictor sessions. As mentioned to Team1, Ed Eyestone made this workout popular for 10k training, although its components are almost identical to Tinman's CV pace repeats. Rather than 4-6 x mile at 10k pace off 2:00 recoveries, you are doing a quarter of the rep with a quarter of the recovery for the same overall workout volume. Thus you could also extend this workout to 10-12 x 800m at 10k pace off 1:00 recoveries, or into the Tinman mile repeats at 10k pace off 2:00 recoveries.