Kip Keino and six other senior Kenyan officials charged with corruption

booooobooooo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Corruption = cheating. Doping = cheating. Same diff. Someone capable of one is capable of the other. Except to blind pillocks on Letsrun.

Ahhh yes, the famed Logic studies. According to you Corruption = Doping.

And no, no bias on my side. I don't accuse people just because of their nationality, unlike yourself.

Their nationality has nothing to do with it. I am opposed to doping wherever it is. And it is everywhere.

You miss the point. There are performance reasons to question - and I only say question - Keino's feat at Mexico. I have never known illness of any kind to permit immediate peak performance and at an unprecedented level for that athlete. But the issue concerning corruption is that if a person is willing to cheat one way would you have any confidence in their integrity not to cheat in another? This doesn't prove Keino doped at Mexico but it raises a valid question, because his alleged "corruption" has been in association with a sport given to rampant doping in his country.

Ryun was recovering from sickness but Keino was actually sick and had been adviced not to race by Doctors.

Plus Keino was already tired, having run the 10,000m and the 5000m, including rounds.

Joplas wrote:

Ryun was recovering from sickness but Keino was actually sick and had been adviced not to race by Doctors.

Plus Keino was already tired, having run the 10,000m and the 5000m, including rounds.

And before the 1500m race, he ran to the stadium after having missed the bus.

Well, Kip Keino on that day was in fabulous shape and had a tremendous pacer in Ben Jipcho. Ryun was not at his peak, having had mono, which is seriously debilitating and I think also an injury that summer. At 7,000 ft plus, the altitude born and raised athlete had an enormous advantage as well, and Ryun played it poorly in allowing the field to get between him and Keino.

Had it been 1967 at sea level, no competition. On the same day in 1968 at sea level, it would have been a battle and maybe Keino would still have won. But I sure would have liked to see what Ryun could have run in 1967 at sea level with Jipcho and Keino for pacers.

You can't conclude from corruption charges in 2018 that the same person fifty years earlier was cheating.

As for the Dutch doctor, what the SI article indicates is that without him, there was such disorganization and lack of serious, coordinated training, that Keino and other Kenyan runners were far off their best form. The article makes no suggestion of doping.

xcvzzcxv wrote:

Well, Kip Keino on that day was in fabulous shape and had a tremendous pacer in Ben Jipcho. Ryun was not at his peak, having had mono, which is seriously debilitating and I think also an injury that summer. At 7,000 ft plus, the altitude born and raised athlete had an enormous advantage as well, and Ryun played it poorly in allowing the field to get between him and Keino.

Had it been 1967 at sea level, no competition. On the same day in 1968 at sea level, it would have been a battle and maybe Keino would still have won. But I sure would have liked to see what Ryun could have run in 1967 at sea level with Jipcho and Keino for pacers.

You can't conclude from corruption charges in 2018 that the same person fifty years earlier was cheating.

Sounds like the Kavanaugh Defence.

zxcvzv wrote:

As for the Dutch doctor, what the SI article indicates is that without him, there was such disorganization and lack of serious, coordinated training, that Keino and other Kenyan runners were far off their best form. The article makes no suggestion of doping.

So if he was "far off his best form", "poorly-trained", and coming off his sick bed as well as running previous events, how do you explain that he was then able to utterly destroy the field in the 1500? Is altitude everything? Careful where that takes you.

Armstronglivs wrote:

zxcvzv wrote:

As for the Dutch doctor, what the SI article indicates is that without him, there was such disorganization and lack of serious, coordinated training, that Keino and other Kenyan runners were far off their best form. The article makes no suggestion of doping.

So if he was "far off his best form", "poorly-trained", and coming off his sick bed as well as running previous events, how do you explain that he was then able to utterly destroy the field in the 1500? Is altitude everything? Careful where that takes you.

He was better than your hero on the day

I'm glad the truth comes out about dopers evan if it is 50 years later.

Banana Bread wrote:

I'm glad the truth comes out about dopers evan if it is 50 years later.

Two more days ...

So should a man with a well documented history of unfaithfulness have his performances scrubbed as well? Because cheating on your wife shows a lack of compunction and proves Lord Coe was doped to the gills in 1980 and 1984. Your response is highly anticipated

Exactly, 2 more days until I hear crickets chirping and I get to say gobble gobble mf to you

El Keniano wrote:

So should a man with a well documented history of unfaithfulness have his performances scrubbed as well? Because cheating on your wife shows a lack of compunction and proves Lord Coe was doped to the gills in 1980 and 1984. Your response is highly anticipated

Plus, he got rich via CSM/British Olympics, and lobbied for Nike to his spiritual leader Diack, from VP to P, and then lied about it. Called Seppelt's discoveries an act of war, and Ashenden and Parisotto so-called scientists, instead of thanking them for presenting the sad truth. Fought against transparency. Etc. etc.

It's not exactly news that Coe does everything for his personal success. 1:41 in '81, ridiculo.

I used to wonder what kind of person would defend such a ... well let's say person on this polite forum.

However, now that I had to live through the double embarrassment of Clinton/Trump, with unbelievably millions of us defending one of those two, one can't really throw a stone anymore.

Well, perhaps someone who also incurs minor traffic infringements should also be labelled a doper. The argument descends into absurdity. But the main point of how Keino produces an out-of-the-box performance immediately after being laid up on his sick-bed is assiduously avoided. It can't be simply explained away. It is conspicuous that you don't try. We also see that the same former athlete is now facing corruption charges in relation to a sport known for its doping in a country that has a serious doping problem. So which one of you is going to vouch for his integrity and say such an athlete would never have doped? The silence is deafening. How you think that is in anyway analogous to who Lord Coe engaged with in his nocturnal recreational pursuits is boggling. (Furthermore, I am quite indifferent to whether Ryun came Ist, second or last in any race; I simply note that until 1968 he had dominated Keino, and that unlike the Kenyan he didn't recover overnight from illness to find the best form of his life.)

^ So no answer, then? Pretty much as I expected. Your argument is a former athlete facing corruption charges 2018 is proof of lack of integrity suggesting he was on some mysterious PEDs in 1968. Conversely, that a different former athlete happens to be a confirmed serial adulterer is bizarrely irrelevant to similar questions about his personal character or whether he could have been doped in the early '80s when he won two Olympic gold medals and run a jaw-dropping 1:41 ... in 1981!

And don't tell me the U.S. doesn't have a doping problem. Kenya will never catch up even with recent busts.

Armstronglivs wrote:

It can't be simply explained away.

It can but you are anti-Kenyan so why should I or anyone else try to present a theory as to why a Kenyan performed in a way you deem suspicious?

They're all guilty age cheats with receding hairlines and only a white boy can run 3:31 for 1500 m, right?

El Keniano wrote:

^ So no answer, then? Pretty much as I expected. Your argument is a former athlete facing corruption charges 2018 is proof of lack of integrity suggesting he was on some mysterious PEDs in 1968. Conversely, that a different former athlete happens to be a confirmed serial adulterer is bizarrely irrelevant to similar questions about his personal character or whether he could have been doped in the early '80s when he won two Olympic gold medals and run a jaw-dropping 1:41 ... in 1981!

And don't tell me the U.S. doesn't have a doping problem. Kenya will never catch up even with recent busts.

You clearly didn't read my response or perhaps even comprehend it. Adultery is hardly connected with sports (unless you have a rather broad definition of what constitutes "sport") but corruption charges against a former athlete arising from involvement in a doped sporting culture are extremely proximate to the same ethical issues that arise if that same athlete were to dope. Adultery, or traffic violations for example, do not have anything like the same ethical proximity to doping as do sports corruption charges. But you don't seem to get that. I don't know whether Coe doped or not, but the discussion was about whether Keino's feat in the 1500m at Mexico City was questionable for the several reasons given (that you still haven't addressed). I am not claiming that corruption charges are actual proof of doping - you construct a straw man there - but they would be consistent with that athlete having doped - if that is what he/she has done. More significantly, it is Keino's incredible performance at Mexico following immediate serious prior illness that is the hardest to explain. You continue to duck that issue - because it can't be explained. Who has done anything equivalent (and we also know the performance was clean?) Of course, if you are also suggesting that Coe was a doper (and he may have been, for a variety of reasons) because, to you, the issues are analogous to Keino's situation then you are in fact making an argument against the Kenyan. Not very helpful to your case. Try again.

booooobooooo wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

It can't be simply explained away.

It can but you are anti-Kenyan so why should I or anyone else try to present a theory as to why a Kenyan performed in a way you deem suspicious?

They're all guilty age cheats with receding hairlines and only a white boy can run 3:31 for 1500 m, right?

I am anti-dopers - anywhere. And quite a few Kenyans are dopers.