Europeans conquered it. Its theirs. No other group can lay claim to rightfully belonging to the land.
Europeans conquered it. Its theirs. No other group can lay claim to rightfully belonging to the land.
El Keniano wrote:
shattered delusions wrote:
These are indisputable facts:
1) Altitude based runners have an advantage in a mid distance race at altitude compared to sea level based runners.
2) Kenya has a doping problem more prevalent than America’s track and field athletes.
Maybe you are allergic to facts, but that doesn’t make these any less accurate.
Skipped a word, bro.
I did not. Are you anti-facts?
El Keniano wrote:
^ Saying Kenyans have a genetic advantage is implying they don’t have to work as hard. It’s exactly the same as that American football commentator.
No, it's not. If Kenyans were no better than western runners, then saying they're more talented would imply that they don't have to work as hard. But they ARE better than western runners. Much better. So saying that they're talented does not preclude them also being very hard working.
Calling someone "talented," doesn't mean much in a vacuum. You have to pay attention to the complete discourse. Nobody ever draws a comparison between supposedly hard-working western runners and "naturally talented" Kenyans. People are in awe of the work ethic of Kenyan runners. They just also happen to think that they're very talented.
shattered delusions wrote:
I did not. Are you anti-facts?
Yes, he is. He's made it clear that he thinks you can't make certain factual assertions if it's possible that other people could use those assertions to buttress a racist worldview.
Rubbish article. An opinion story looking for an argument.
El Keniano wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
If anybody thought Ryun was heavily favored at Mexico they didn't know much about running or the effects of altitude. Having been raised at altitude gave Keino a huge advantage at 7,200 feet.
And right on queue, the reflexive dismissal of Keino’s victory. Had it happened today, the LRC would’ve branded him ‘doped to the gills’ and American journalists would’ve pointed out that he’s wearing a Rosa singlet.
Come on El K. People back than were not savvy about altitude training. It undoubtedly affected Ryun. He would not have not had the same build up had he been running with the knowledge that we have today. Not saying Keino wouldn't have won at sea level anyway or that he would have approached his training differently either but competing at altitude and living and training at altitude undoubtedly had a positive effect for Keino. It's not racist to say so and it's not taking Keino's victory away from him. He won it fair and square he was the better athlete and if I recall Jack Daniels had informed Ryun about this disadvantage and I believe he didn't take it seriously.
Didn't read the article wrote:
A lot of stuff not at all related to the article
You should read the article or at least skim it.
800 dude wrote:
I pretty much agree with that entire article, but I don't think it maps cleanly onto the letsrun discourse. The issue the article is talking about is ascribing morally superior explanations for the performances of white athletes while denying black athletes any agency when they perform similarly. That's not what happens here. Pretty much everyone who knows anything about distance running knows that Kenyan athletes work incredibly hard and are tough as nails. Nobody is suggesting that Kenyans vs. westerners is a battle of talent vs. work ethic and intelligence. The question is whether, despite having all of the same mental tools as westerners (and then some), Kenyans also have genetic advantages and whether they dope more than westerners. (It's significant that westerners are almost universally accused of doping once they reach a globally competitive level.)
If you want a more concrete example, look at the coverage of Kipchoge. Almost every profile of him, even in the mainstream, non-running media, focuses on his mental focus and discipline. Many of these profiles even specifically note that when he was tested by Nike, his physiological stats were not remotely off the charts, and it was impossible to pick him out as a champion. This is not the toxic discourse of the American football commentator who refers to every black athlete as "talented."
This is a good review of the article.
I think letsrun suffers from sophomoric trolls (as demonstrated on this thread, actually), driven by hate, that often derail discussion. These trolls tend towards racism, but it isn't their racism that is the problem, so much as their ignorance of logic (as mostly demonstrated by the constant return to strawmen fallacies and ad hominem screeds), or perhaps even their aversion to logic.
Ryun was coming off a virus in '68 that meant he was not in the kind of form he had been in throughout '66/67 (and he would never regain that form). That is quite apart from the effect that altitude played at the Mexico City games, that heavily favoured the altitude-trained Kenyan athletes. Keino certainly ran a great race at Mexico but if it had not been held at altitude and he had faced the '67 Ryun then I have little doubt the result would have been reversed. I have seen few instances of where a top runner has been so destroyed as what Ryun did to Keino over the last 300m of his July '67 Coliseum Relays world record. (And, at 3.33.1 his record was considerably faster than Keino's 3.34.9 at Mexico and with a greater winning margin, of some four seconds). Until '68, Ryun had owned Keino. Mexico City was not a true measure of their respective talents. Not if you had seen the Coliseum Relays in '67.
However you choose to look at it, 20 metres is not close. And Ryun was unaffected enough by the altitude to beat everyone else but Kip. The whole story can be relieved in this doc.
I however don’t like how they later started suggesting foul play saying Kip was paced by Ben Jipcho. Jipcho, an accomplished athlete himself has that cloud hanging over his head and it even dominates his Wikipedia entry.
El Keniano wrote:
From the NYT:
The prevailing wisdom was that middle- and long-distance running was a cornerstone of Anglo-Saxon athletic dominance. The sprints, so the stereotype went, required only raw natural talent, but distance races were cerebral and required grit and stamina, focus and organization. What impressed the 10-year-old Thompson as much as the victory was Keino’s show of compassion, not simply sportsmanship, toward Ryun, who was devastated by the loss.
https://nyti.ms/2P61R4O
Four years after Abebe Bikila won his second straight gold in WR, people still believed this BS? Were they asleep in 1964, or did they think marathon was not a "distance race"?
Ezekiel bread wrote:
El Keniano wrote:
No more or less saintly than American runners. Which is why singling them out is, in and of itself, racist. Are you going to tell me I’m ‘the reason why Trump won’, next?
You're either delusional or never been to America. But unlike Kenya, American runners can't buy EPO like it's Advil.
El Keniano is completely right. There are LOTS of posters on these boards who regularly support American runners and suggest they're clean for no particular reason except their looks. Especially the women. It's ridiculous.
Maybe it's harder to buy EPO in the US, or maybe you just have to know a guy.
rabble rabble rabble wrote:
John Utah wrote:
What is the deal with people always obsessing on skin color? Does it ever get old for these people? Is is a hobby?
The deal is that there are so many people in the world who make all these prejudicial comments stereotyping people because of their skin color. And most of them don't even realize when they do it! It's not everyone, but there are still a ton of people hold these subconscious stereotypes that cause them to make overreaching assumptions and treat people differently based on how they look, and I don't know about you but I think that's messed up.
It's uncomfortable to talk about for sure, but it's important because if we don't then we're going to keep on having those subconscious prejudices without even realizing it.
It's not uncomfortable at all, just use "talking about race" as an excuse to attach everyone you don't like and you'll be quite comfortable.
quickndirty wrote:
everything is racist.
+1
Like vanilla ice cream over chocolate? Racist!
Don’t let hyperbole stand in the way of reality wrote:
El Keniano wrote:
Excellent article from the Guardian that works for Letsrun, too.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/02/athletes-racism-language-sports-cam-newtonIt’s The Guarfian, the urban left wing rag financed not by sakes and advertising but by trust fund babes.
There is a huge celebration of black athletes. And all athletes who do well are accused of drug taking. In fact, you can more likely argue that it’s swing so far the other way that when a white or Asian athlete does well, it’s assumed they are taking drugs.
And let’s not forget the horrible racist comments on here when Lynsey Sharp complained about 3 people with male secondary sexual characteristics in her Olympic 800m final - ‘white tears’. I’ve yet to hear anyone accusing you of having ‘black tears’.
Maybe we should all just stick to running and competing and leave the pointless internet posturing to those that aren’t any good at the first two...because your aim is clearly to create argument, goad people into making racist remarks and try to make yourself feel good by wallowing in how terrible it all is. Let’s move on and celebrate performances.
The media is always claiming the opposite of the truth. In all honesty, the folks that run the media vilify whites every chance they get. That's because they don't consider themselves white. Go ahead, ask them.
The Land of Rising Sun wrote:
El Keniano wrote:
From the NYT:
The prevailing wisdom was that middle- and long-distance running was a cornerstone of Anglo-Saxon athletic dominance. The sprints, so the stereotype went, required only raw natural talent, but distance races were cerebral and required grit and stamina, focus and organization. What impressed the 10-year-old Thompson as much as the victory was Keino’s show of compassion, not simply sportsmanship, toward Ryun, who was devastated by the loss.
https://nyti.ms/2P61R4OFour years after Abebe Bikila won his second straight gold in WR, people still believed this BS? Were they asleep in 1964, or did they think marathon was not a "distance race"?
Nobody thought that. That's basically a quote from John Entine who is not exactly enamored of whites, as he likely doesn't consider himself white. Entine basically wrote the same copy in a special he put together for NBC in '88 or so and they still drag it out and use it to attack whites. People had seen the Kenyans in action against Ron Clarke and had a lot of respect for them, never mind the respect for Bikila's feats. Leave it to the bolshevik media to lie. The media rarely if ever mentions the altitude factor. Hell, if sea level runners in the 800 were aided by the altitude, there's little doubt Keino was helped.
Then there's the IAAF report (see Charlie Francis' book "Speed Trap" for his comments) about the Jamaican and Kenyan teams, as all athletes were being tested for steroids etc., although the drugs weren't illegal at the time. But it's raaaysist to bring that up.
^So white athletes are the true victims? Didn’t expect that from Letsrun at all LOL.
El Keniano wrote:
^So white athletes are the true victims? Didn’t expect that from Letsrun at all LOL.
So what do you want to call it when a clean athlete is cheated by a dirty athlete? Not saying all Kenyan runners are dirty either. Here's a short list of Kenyan runners I believe are clean and a list of European/American runners I believe are dirty.
Kenyan runners I believe that are clean:
David Rudisha
Augustine Choge
Eliud Kipchoge and the rest of Patrick Sang training group
Wilson Kipsang
And many more
American/European runners I believe are dirty:
NOP
Jerry's runners
Laura Muir
Paula Radcliff
Mo Farah
Ingebrigtsen brothers
What percentage of American and European runners are dirty?
What percentage of east African runners are dirty?
Your list, including Patrick Sang’s group, don’t even begin to crack 1% of Kenyan elites. Meaning you’re accusing 99% of Kenyans of being dirty. Sit down. You’re not here for a discussion.
El Keniano wrote:
Your list, including Patrick Sang’s group, don’t even begin to crack 1% of Kenyan elites. Meaning you’re accusing 99% of Kenyans of being dirty. Sit down. You’re not here for a discussion.
I'm not at all. This is just what first came to mind. If I believe the fastest runners in Kenya are clean, why would I reason the slower ones are dirty? I believe most of Kenyan runners can be the top of the world without drugs. But there is a drug problem in Kenya. Kenya right now is probably where cycling was ten-fifteen years ago.
Also, as a American I do believe some of the top American runners are dirty(cough . . . cough Alberto and Jerry). Why can't you be this honest with yourself and your own country?
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