Thank you for bringing a neutral, well-thought out perspective. I will echo what I said last week, I have a lot of respect for Pappy even if we haven’t always agreed. It’s guys like him that save this thread for me.
Thank you for bringing a neutral, well-thought out perspective. I will echo what I said last week, I have a lot of respect for Pappy even if we haven’t always agreed. It’s guys like him that save this thread for me.
rrr -- That's a heckuva run. Was that a pre-planned pace (6:00/mi), or "medium-hard" effort -- checking the watch only afterwards? Even splits, or somewhat of a progression?
In any case, you've got some great fall racing ahead! It's with some envy that I follow so many here as you all get faster week after week, while the game for me is to minimize loses. :)
I scheduled a 5-mile "tempo" earlier this week, looking to get close to estimated LT pace. Didn't check my watch, and ran half-marathon pace. That was on fatigued legs, so all good in context.
Re: weather. 87℉ here yesterday, predicted high of 57℉ today. Brrrr. I'm not ready for winter.
Re: t.h. Yes, the shtick is getting a bit old, but I still enjoy the comedic relief. There is enough truth in it to keep it entertaining. In the attempt to be consistent and unwavering with his "absolutes," however, he often paints himself into a nonsensical corner. Blanket statements about "running by feel" ignore key individually-variable components like prior racing experience, ability to judge paces and appropriate comfort/discomfort levels, and the need for feedback/motivation (to which a watch and detailed training log can contribute).
Allen,
Maybe my problem is I've never been a huge disciple of anyone. I do know that big breakthroughs have happened for me when I follow a training plan. To improve, most people need some specific direction.
The problem is there's typically some truth in everything. There are some pretty accomplished runners who advocate bagging a hard workout when things aren't going right. ON the other hand, some people need to run through those rough patches.
I appreciate the way most people behave on this thread. It typically follows this form:
Good job on _________, I was wondering, why do you always do________. Have you ever thought about __________?
Your manifesto reads: too hot is a troll because he is “mean”
1) Grow a pair
2) Learn the difference between being truthful and being mean
We’re on page 16 by the way and you continue to ignore me. Man of your word I see.
runrincerepeat wrote:
Sub 6:00 wrote:
That’s a good run, those were not Sub 6 beer miles! (And even if they were, NA doesn’t count.)
All credit goes to pap who is getting me into shape .. aerobic strength mode. I do believe the biking helps but not as much as the no beer. Starting to feel like the sky is the limit for sober R3.
Unlike Smoove's proposal, me offering to help coach RRR was a win-win for me. I really don't deserve any credit, though. Helping train him is keeping me more engaged in something I have always loved, done and have talked about for 40+ years. He's the one out there working every day. All I have been doing is to help apply the knowledge he already has to his training.
Deep down, it brings a smile to my face when I think about when the intensity begins to ramp up. He said a while ago "If I could only run that pace, I'd walk." He didn't direct the comment at me but I was running at that pace. lol paybacks.
Allen, Today RRR and I were texting, talking about what benefits biking and lifting has for runners. I have always felt a bike mile is worth .1-.25 miles of aerobic base conditioning. So, 100 miles of biking can add 10-25 miles to your aerobic fitness. Probably wrong but it adds some. Lifting, especially heavyweight lifting helps increase testosterone levels. I'm not saying your old but T levels go down from age and running in most people. I wonder if you started lifting more if it would have a positive impact on your running.
Allen1959 wrote:
Re: t.h. Yes, the shtick is getting a bit old, but I still enjoy the comedic relief. There is enough truth in it to keep it entertaining. In the attempt to be consistent and unwavering with his "absolutes," however, he often paints himself into a nonsensical corner. Blanket statements about "running by feel" ignore key individually-variable components like prior racing experience, ability to judge paces and appropriate comfort/discomfort levels, and the need for feedback/motivation (to which a watch and detailed training log can contribute).
Here are a few more grains of truth to keep it entertaining for you. I am one of the biggest proponents of individual variation. That is, in fact, the bedrock principle of a run by feel approach. I also insist that the trolls not take things or quotes out of context and that we judge on a case by case basis.
Allen - It was let me check here
6:01-6:04-5:53-6:00-6:02-5:56
Started by feel and glancing at watch lap pace. Got going a hare fast mile 3 and reigned it back in (slightly downhill last half mile) then kept it steady w a little kick at end.
Pappy wrote:
Anyways, whats the old sayings "If you don't have anything worth saying why say it?" .
My grandmother taught it to me this way: “If you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say anything at all.”
She had a lot of friends.
Bdubs wrote:
ON the other hand, some people need to run through those rough patches.
Indeed. You and I can appreciate and acknowledge "the other hand." Others, it seems, are reluctant to abandon the single-dogmatic and "contrarion" on-line persona they have established.
As for your example, if one never pushes through discomfort or "goes to the well" in training, how can one expect to do it in a race? And some of us need the motivation of a pre-planned schedule or a training pace goal to achieve those kinds of efforts. Especially those of us who train solo.
When it comes to biking. My biking I think is about 4-1. So 100 miles is around 20-25 miles running. One reason is because of the single speed w the big gear it’s imposible to just cruise around slow .. it’s also almost impossible to ride it even 6-8 miles and not get the HR up pushing that gear (esp w hills). I noticed that it doesn’t make tempos faster don’t think. But it def has helped the perceived effort ...
Plus I just freaking like it.
It’s kind of double gains for me instead of drinkin beer in the evening ...now I ride my bike instead. So it’s increased riding AND no beer which has really helps.
To be honest, I question the wisdom of getting myself involved in this kerfuffle. But what the heck, it's Saturday, and this week's edition will be headed into the archives pretty soon...
In the interest of accuracy, too hot has dropped a few hints about his bio here and there, including a few that relate to his running career. From what I can remember, he has said that
(a) He had a Lydiard-inspired coach in HS.
(b) He went on to compete at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. If I recall correctly, he mentioned being on the team at or about the same time as Mark Winzenreid, one of the all-time Badger greats, so this would have been in the late 60s-early 70s.
(c) He has mentioned coaching, though without giving specifics that I can recall.
(d) He has demonstrated that he is willing to change his mind about certain aspects of contemporary training (specifically, he seems to have come around to a much more positive view of Canova after watching one of his seminars, at least in terms of finding the man personally impressive.)
To my knowledge, too hot has never said anything specific about his own career at the UW, so we don't know whether he was a stallion or a scrub in that context. Nevertheless, simply by virtue of having run at the UW, I would have to imagine that he has performed and competed at a significantly higher level than I (for one) ever did. And whatever his achievements, he might be expected to have personal experience of one of the great college distance-running programs. When I was in Madison, I did have the opportunity to talk with some guys who ran at the UW back in the day, but I would be happy to learn more about the history of the program and the training that UW athletes were doing during that period (from the perspective of historical curiosity if nothing else). For example, I would be interested to hear whether too hot has any insight into how the training that Schumacher's group does relates to Wisconsin tradition going back further.
That being said, too hot spends waaaaaay too much of his time acting like a troll, or perhaps more accurately, a crank, to the point that he undermines and discredits the positions he claims to be advocating for, and drags down the thread in general.
So, on the one hand, I agree with Pappy that "good too hot" could contribute something of value to the thread, even if he is not actively training and racing himself at this time. On the other hand, I agree with Bdubs that if we are going to get like 10% "good too hot" and 90% "bad too hot", then it's better for the thread if people simply don't engage with him at all.
To too hot: In addition to the UW connection, I think we share an appreciation for Lydiard and for the wisdom of training by feel. Sure, we've had disagreements about what that means exactly, but I think the back and forth has been largely constructive. Personally, I would be happy to hear more from you in that vein, and to respond where I feel like I have something to say. That being said, a lot of behavior does a disservice to your views, and whatever sense of grievance you may feel, I would encourage you to get over it and take responsibility for your own actions. In short, if you don't want people to dismiss you as a crank/troll, stop acting like one.
too hot wrote:
I am one of the biggest proponents of individual variation. That is, in fact, the bedrock principle of a run by feel approach.
OK. I just think that individual variation also includes psychological components like varying needs for feedback and motivation. And like various wants and needs for enjoyment and satisfaction.
I really enjoy setting time goals, and trying to make it happen. And specific race goals for me require time goals in training. I enjoy entering and keeping track of all my stats, too. It's all motivation for me to keep at it.
Individual variations may also may include the need to experience specific paces in training in order to establish a context for "running by feel." Or various levels of racing experience, and how exposure to a range of race distances affects ones perception of appropriate levels of comfort/discomfort.
But, I think all of this has been covered before. I need to get back to work so I can wrap up early enough to run some repeats in which I will set an unrealistic goal and either beat myself up physically so badly that I won't properly recover or fail so badly that I will be emotionally defeated.
Allen1959 wrote:
And some of us need the motivation of a pre-planned schedule or a training pace goal to achieve those kinds of efforts. Especially those of us who train solo.
Speaking of blanket like assessments Allen.
Not all sources of motivation are created equal. It is incumbent upon the runner to seek out sources that inspire best practice. My argument is that pace-based goals are counterproductive.
For example, Coach Jeff enjoys tracking data as much as anyone else but recently he discovered that pace was not the best target.
RRR - I would like to say congrats on the strong tempo run, but I am sorry that I cannot, as that would be encouraging daily update posts.
At least you do not misrepresent facts and that is appreciated. That is as much disclosure as I am willing to provide. I think it is important that we not let our views of the messenger taint the message in either a good or bad way which is why I choose anonymity.
I’m a grumpy old man. I will admit to that much. I have apologized in the past when things have gotten out of hand. I do not feel obliged however to stroke anyone’s ego or to walk on glasswben making comments.
outsiderunner wrote:
RRR - I would like to say congrats on the strong tempo run, but I am sorry that I cannot, as that would be encouraging daily update posts.
Haha touché. But you run strong all the time. For me it’s rare!
Re: the too hot affair
I’m roughly in the same camp as Pappy and GFMAH. He’s not the most tactful, which can alienate people, but bluntness can be a virtue.
Sometimes his criticism can seem reflexive. To that end, I think it would be helpful if he explained his reasoning a little more in some of his posts.
To others, if he isn’t being constructive, I don’t see the value in getting too worked up. Just let it roll off.
And I would much rather this thread grow to unmanageable lengths due to midweek updates than from this sort of stuff.
too hot wrote:
Allen1959 wrote:
And some of us need the motivation of a pre-planned schedule or a training pace goal to achieve those kinds of efforts. Especially those of us who train solo.
Speaking of blanket like assessments Allen.
Not all sources of motivation are created equal. It is incumbent upon the runner to seek out sources that inspire best practice. My argument is that pace-based goals are counterproductive.
For example, Coach Jeff enjoys tracking data as much as anyone else but recently he discovered that pace was not the best target.
Good points, and I appreciate the spirit in which they're offered. I wrote "some of us," assuming I wasn't alone. Indeed, I should have written, "I need ..." or better still, "I perceive the need ..."
Anyway, I enjoy tracking times and paces, and although I generally have in mind training paces indicative of my race goals, I run repeats and tempos by feel.
These days, they are usually slower than what I would wish for, but they are what they are. And the actual times are interesting and fun for me to evaluate and compare to other training sessions.
Heart rate would also be interesting to track, but I never have previously, so not much draw for me. Plus the need for a device beyond my simple stopwatch.
While watching the Berlin Marathon last weekend, I was thinking of pace-based goals. The pace-setters were assigned specific paces, based on the athlete's goals. One might argue that Kipchoge's goal pace (WR), based on his experience and recent training, was far from counterproductive. Rather, it was informed, intelligent and successful.
Yes, I know there are countless examples of blowups when wishes conflict with reality. But for me, especially as a has-been who never was, that's all a part of the game.
Oh, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention I also agree with Pappy that Smoove’s contributions are clearly valuable to the thread as well.
And I’ve always used a 4/1 bike/run conversion when I’ve been injured. (When I’m not injured, biking, kayaking, and duck pin bowling don’t get conversions and are just “extra.”)
The Stone Cutter wrote:
Ignore him AT ALL COST. There is no need to censor him. He’ll eventually get the hint that he isn’t welcome here and none of us are interested in what he has to say...
But where else am I going to use Star Wars memes?