Elites who Run In Minimalists

dnixon wrote:

Brettman,

The acronym PRP went right over my head. What is it?

Peak Running Performance

get out,

I run more on the roads or concrete paths during the winter. Is this possible for you? Actually, I've noticed myself running more on concrete and pavement since switching to flats, although I do try to mix up the surface. I also stopped wearing socks back in Dec..... I was worried at first how my feet would handle the cold/moisture, but I believe my feet felt warmer and drier than they ever did with socks. I alternate between pairs if one pair gets wet. I also did a little bit of barefoot running on wet grass when it was down around 25 degrees; it's cold at first, but you get used to it. Now, anytime anything gets sore/tight, I slip of my shoes and run barefoot-- this always does the trick, so I highly recommend it as a preventive method.

Tossing my orthotics and the heavy trainers is honestly the best thing I ever did! I never felt "right" with orthotics, despite doctors telling me I "needed" them for my flat feet. Doctors don't always know what's best for you.... sometimes you just have to figure it out yourself and stick with what works.

mr flats wrote:

To prevent future injuries, I would recommend (1) staying on softer surfaces at all costs, preferably grass or dirt/chipped trails[/quote]

Surface doesn't make much of a difference, considering you adjust your biomechanics in such a way going from one surface to another so that force varies very little. My best advice is to vary the surface you run on so you don't subject your legs and feet to the same repeated stress.

Thanks to dnixon, mr. flats, and jaguar.

To give an idea, I have just come back from 11 weeks out, the first 5 trying to salvage my last track season (you know how it goes; running one day, having pain, taking a day off, hoping against hope it's better, trying again, same result) and finally taking 6 weeks. I was exhausted with the pool running and was possibly even overtraining there, so I just went out each day on a bicycle. I was so badly overtrained that there was little fitness to lose anyway.

It was rules a marrow edema of the growth plate in the heel. I am 17 but just 5'4", 112. Add this to a cuboid avulsion, stress fractures of two metatarsals, continuing problems with one of those metatarsals that resulted in more down time and tendonitis 3-4 times, peroneal tendonitis, Achilles tendonitis, talus (ankle) tendonitis, and also the rarer upper body injuries that were no doubt related to my lower leg problems (chronically bad back with multiple strains of the illiac crest and gluteus medius, chronodomalacia, piriformis syndrome, etc.).

I started back going 1 mile the first day, 2 miles for 3 days, day off, 3 miles the last 3 days. All of this, except today, on the grass infield of a football field. Each day I alternated shoes, first using Tiger Paws, then New Balance 765's without the insoles, then a different pair of 765's without the insoles, then H Streets for a few laps, and always at the end of every run, 3-4 laps barefoot and barefoot strides.

I walk barefoot every day and have been walking in the H Streets the last few days. I tried 3 miles today around a grass field in the H streets. After just 2 miles I stopped and went barefoot because of pain.

I now have trouble walking with bad knee pain, and I know why, finally. My right foot is badly pronated and this is why the podiatrist has recommended orthoses. Today I see that the right H street has the inner, middle part of the shoe crooked out from the pressure of my right foot continuously making those small, jerky overpronations. And this from just 2 miles of running, very easily, slowly, and gently on grass.

So, in short, I have perhaps another few weeks out.

My times are quite bad for the amount of training I have done. I have a 5,000m PR high in the 17's, have never broken 5:00 in the mile (injured this entire season, afflicted with terrible allergies last season), even with year round training when healthy, mileage as high as 72 (lifetime high), long runs, threshold work, strides...all of it is there, but the improvement is not. I can relate to the barefoot strides in 25 degree weather; in January, I recruited another guy on the track team to help me shovel the turf on the track for 100m. I went running and returned when it was dark, then tried strides on the wet grass. It was 15 degrees and the moisture had turned to ice, so in addition to performing strides over what felt like broken glass, I had to stop at the end of each rep standing on my heels to let the balls of the feet thaw out.

Some of the injuries were clearly due to overtraining, but the last I have little idea what brought it on. I started having a soreness there that was there for about a month, but I mainly ignored it. One day it was ridiculously cold and windy outside so I did 150's on the tiny indoor track, and the turns seemed to badly aggravate it. I was quite stupid and continued doing 3-4 more reps even after the pain became very bad, but from there the season was shot and the run one day/stop the next routine ensued for a few weeks.

I try to take the easy runs easy, stay on soft surfaces, etc., but it does not seem to work.

I want to stay healthy and compete in college. I have no chance of doing so now, much less even training with the team, which would lead to more injury, and I was hoping this flat-wearing habit would keep my healthy.

But after being injured with just 2 miles in flats, now I have no idea where to go.

I want to take issue with the first post of the thread -- i tried on a pair of nike free's yesterday, and they were NOT minimalist shoes. They had ridiculously high heels, i couldn't understand how that could be thought of as natural. I started laughing as i put them on -- i mean, come on! Now, for a pair of shoes that felt REAL nice, get the zoom streak xc's. They're my new pair of racing (and possibly hard workout) flats, and when I took them out for a little jog outside the store it felt like I wasn't wearing anything at all.

a) I think that you'll get on fine with the H Streets if you take it very slowly. You have a long list of issues and I think the combo you had (765, Tiger Paw, and few laps in the H Streets) was good and I would stick with it.

Listen, I was healthy and did 35min in the H Streets my first time out and was dying. You can't take it too slowly.

Also, the Tiger Paw may be too tall for you foot. The DS Racer might be more appropriate.

osto wrote:

I know Morceli use to train in racing flats.

My mate who works from Nike loves the FREES and has done a 1/2 and full marathon in them (not sure if he is paid to love em')

Hey Osto, A mate just told me about this thread so thought i'd reply...

I actually ran marathon about 2 months ago, 1/2 marathon about a month ago in the FREE 5.0

Please note I didn't do it straight away, gradually built up to walking in it all day over a period of about a month, then started to do smaller runs in it.

I loved it, felt really comfortable and extremely efficient. Before I knew it I was doing my longer runs in it with no issues as my body was adapting to it. The whole process took me over 8 months from wearing them to running the marathon.

I have been trying to run a marathon for the past 4 years but never been able to run one, had always gotten injured, ITB and hipflexor issues every time I ramped up my training for a marathon. In running and walking in FREE I gradually built up to doing alot of miles in them, approx 800km's and I can still wear them as a comfortable casual shoe as there is plenty of outsole tread left and not as much compression as a traditional shoe which I would have trashed by now.

Funnily enough I live by the beach and have just done a 10k barefoot sand run two weeks ago and yesterday a 1/2 marathon barefoot on the sand. (They also put on a marathon barefoot in the sand, I believe the first ever in the world, it was amazing to see a couple of my mates do it - they too have been wearing FREE for some time) My feet are pretty strong now as a result so they hardly hurt the day after, my calves are a different story as barefoot sand running is a different ball game altogether.

Before yesterdays half marathon the 10k two weeks before was the longest I'd run barefoot on sand so i'm pretty stoked to have my feet in as little pain as possible. Its just common sense, the stronger the musculature and surrounding tissue is the more resilient it becomes and recovery seems to be alot quicker too.

I know i'm opening up myself to criticism here but everyone is different, i'm not saying that FREE should be your primary running shoe, its a training tool, like a swiss ball but for your feet but I found that I ran more efficiently in it.

I personally just think its the most comfortable shoe i've ever worn as being a surfer love to be barefoot as much as possible.

I also know of a friend of mine who is a sports science student in her final year who ran a 45k marathon about 3-4 weeks ago, it took her about 3 days to recover from the marathon. And there was another person from the Gold Coast here in Australia who did the run leg in the Forster Ironman in FREE's.

If anyone has any q's just drop me a line.

Funny you mentioned your calves hurting after the race two posts after I pointed out that the heels are so high. The free seem like they would be GREAT for your feet, but still don't allow your calves full range of motion (therefore making them weaker). That said, maybe you're right, running in the sand for that long has got to be hell. I can't imagine how slow the times must have been. Nice post.

Thanks mate.

The times weren't that bad considering there were two man made hills (approx 7ft high) and a water trap that came up to just below your knees which you had to run through.

The winner came through in 1:42, I did 1:51 and came 7th overall on the 21k.

The FREE's will actually work your calves more than other running shoes as the ride height is lower than normal running shoes but then again not like barefoot as that is the point to FREE, halfway between barefoot and halfway between a normal running shoe so you get benefits of barefoot and some benefits of a running shoe like a little support, cushioning. If you went to barefoot straight away it would kill you!!!

the results are here :

http://www.multisportaustralia.com.au/results.aspx?EventID=100

Keep Running!

Chicken;)

I don't see what the big deal is. Have we coined a new phrase now? "Minimalist". Christ. It's a freakin shoe. Trainers today are too bulked up with foam and stability devices. Take a look at an Asics shoe circa 1992-95. You won't see any midfoot support devices because the shoes actually had a flat bottom. Then all of a sudden Reebox comes out with a shoe that has a HUGE gap in the middle of the foam and so of course everyone had to follow them. That led to LOTS of foot problems so WOW now we need more supportive plasic (ie, fine a way to make shoes more expensive). Anyway...

When I trained in trainers and raced in flats I could always tell a huge difference when I raced. My feet hurt a bit in flats and my calves/achilles stretched more. I just thought that's how it was supposed to feel. After an achilles injury I switched to flats and PRESTO my feet got used to the shoes and so now by training in flats I'm training my feet to race. Years ago there wasn't such a thing as Cushioned Shoes, Motion-Control Shoes, Stability Shoes, Racing Shoes, Trail Shoes, Minimalist Shoes. Why? Because shoe companies want to make money. Plain and Simple. When NB came out with the first $100 shoe the companies wised up and realized they would make a killing on our ignorance.

Alan

trackhead wrote:

a) I think that you'll get on fine with the H Streets if you take it very slowly. You have a long list of issues and I think the combo you had (765, Tiger Paw, and few laps in the H Streets) was good and I would stick with it.

Listen, I was healthy and did 35min in the H Streets my first time out and was dying. You can't take it too slowly.

Also, the Tiger Paw may be too tall for you foot. The DS Racer might be more appropriate.

How gradual are we speaking about?

I am now, with that aforementioned light jogging everyday, getting pains around my formerly fractured 5th metatarsal.

This is off ridiculously slow jogging on grass. I have some sort of abnormality where I cannot flex my 5th toe that was fractured, so it absorbs undue stress.

I would love to do this whole minimalist thing, but isn't it possible that certain mechanics are just not fit for it? I hate the orthoses and whatnot, but I was uninjured for a good period of time while wearing them.