Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

rekrunner wrote:

Looks like you really don't "got me". If you've looked at the history of the sport, why are you unaware of the improved coaching?

Cross country in the 1980s showed the depth of the talent pool in both Kenya and Ethiopia, for the seniors and juniors, unlikely to be from EPO or blood transfusions.

There were systems in place, which improved when a few coaches started working with Kenya and Ethiopia.

The disagreement is that you think the large drops in times in the 1990s and afterwards, were related to doping (something that should have been easily replicated outside of Africa), while I think the large drops were due to improved training for a group of highly motivated, and highly talented athletes, something that also did not exist in the 1980s to the same degree.

There is no contradiction to say they were already good before EPO, showing depth of talent, and potential, and that they got better with more effective and consistent training that allowed them to realize their full potential.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Ha Rekrunner, you've debated us for so long that you haven't realized you've gone 180° in your reasoning. When many of us looked at the history of the sport and deduced that a lot of dirty European agents/coaches/doctors went to East Africa in the 1990s with this new undetectable endurance drug (and maybe hgh too), and suddenly records dropped in huge amounts. You're response was "Oh, the East Africans were already good. Just look at their world cross-country dominance from the early 1980s." So obviously systems were in place pre 1990 but the gap in track times with the rest was non existent and I know how you prefer track times for analysis. However, now your argument is the opposite that, "Rosa and others" simply introduced "organized training, structure, and support." ? got ya.

Coevett wrote:

But times stopped improving once the EPO testing became better, and in fact largely declined, at trend that continued with the ABP and now with more stringent testing in Kenya. The population of Kenya was 35.07 million in 2004, today it's just under 50 million. Are these 'systems' not in place anymore?

The Kenyans did not dominate cross country from the early 1980s. The two greatest cross country runners of the 80's were Paul Kipcoech and John Ngugi. Kipcoech died in an El Doret hospital at age 32 from an 'illness' that had mysteriously forced him to retire in 85. Ngugi, who did dominate in the late 80's, refused to take an out-of-competition drug test in 1993 received a four-year suspension.

In short, you're a racist doping apologist rekrunner and full of $hi t.

Kenyan dominance has been built from peds from the start, from Kenio in 68 to the cross country 'domination' of the 80's and to Kiprop and today.

rekrunner wrote:

Such hostility to something posted 7 months ago.

Some basic history, which is race and doping neutral. Starting with 1981 World Cross Country, team results of 6 men teams:

1) Ethiopia

2) USA

3) Kenya

beating Spain, Australia, England, and 30 other countries.

Ethiopia's Mohamed Kedir placed 2nd between Craig Virgin and Fernando Mamede.

Ethiopia had 6 men in before England's #2.

In 1982, Ethiopia placed first in Seniors (6 men) and Juniors (1, 2, 4, 5), while Kenya was 4th in Seniors.

In 1983, Ethiopia placed first in Seniors (6 men) and Juniors (1, 2, 4, 6), while Kenya was 3rd in Seniors.

and so on...

To my knowledge, this predates all European coaches and managers, except Brother Colm, who was in Kenya, not Ethiopia.

The "systems" are still in place, but the money dried up on the track, and athletes have had to adapt their racing. Even if populations have doubled, there is a smaller supply of money to provide incentives for fast times on the track.

If you want to convince me how much times have declined, I'm prepared to see an analysis. If you want to convince me this decline is linked to EPO testing, it will have to be part of a larger comprehensive analysis acknowledging other potential factors that could have led to decline in performance, either separately or in conjunction.

If you just want to make conclusory claims lacking any real substance or knowledge, I will consider them personal faith and hypothesis.

If you show me any athlete found to have doped (substance or method) against anti-doping rules, I will not apologize for their doping.

I think it damages the sport to make sweeping accusations that might include many clean athletes, particularly when lacking any direct knowledge.

I find it unlikely that PEDs alone could have fueled such East African domination for 50 years, and all athletes from 5 continents would have idly let that happen.

Coevett wrote:

But times stopped improving once the EPO testing became better, and in fact largely declined, at trend that continued with the ABP and now with more stringent testing in Kenya. The population of Kenya was 35.07 million in 2004, today it's just under 50 million. Are these 'systems' not in place anymore?

The Kenyans did not dominate cross country from the early 1980s. The two greatest cross country runners of the 80's were Paul Kipcoech and John Ngugi. Kipcoech died in an El Doret hospital at age 32 from an 'illness' that had mysteriously forced him to retire in 85. Ngugi, who did dominate in the late 80's, refused to take an out-of-competition drug test in 1993 received a four-year suspension.

In short, you're a racist doping apologist rekrunner and full of $hi t.

Kenyan dominance has been built from peds from the start, from Kenio in 68 to the cross country 'domination' of the 80's and to Kiprop and today.

rekrunner wrote:

Such hostility to something posted 7 months ago.

Some basic history, which is race and doping neutral. Starting with 1981 World Cross Country, team results of 6 men teams:

1) Ethiopia

2) USA

3) Kenya

beating Spain, Australia, England, and 30 other countries.

Ethiopia's Mohamed Kedir placed 2nd between Craig Virgin and Fernando Mamede.

Ethiopia had 6 men in before England's #2.

In 1982, Ethiopia placed first in Seniors (6 men) and Juniors (1, 2, 4, 5), while Kenya was 4th in Seniors.

In 1983, Ethiopia placed first in Seniors (6 men) and Juniors (1, 2, 4, 6), while Kenya was 3rd in Seniors.

and so on...

To my knowledge, this predates all European coaches and managers, except Brother Colm, who was in Kenya, not Ethiopia.

The "systems" are still in place, but the money dried up on the track, and athletes have had to adapt their racing. Even if populations have doubled, there is a smaller supply of money to provide incentives for fast times on the track.

If you want to convince me how much times have declined, I'm prepared to see an analysis. If you want to convince me this decline is linked to EPO testing, it will have to be part of a larger comprehensive analysis acknowledging other potential factors that could have led to decline in performance, either separately or in conjunction.

If you just want to make conclusory claims lacking any real substance or knowledge, I will consider them personal faith and hypothesis.

If you show me any athlete found to have doped (substance or method) against anti-doping rules, I will not apologize for their doping.

I think it damages the sport to make sweeping accusations that might include many clean athletes, particularly when lacking any direct knowledge.

I find it unlikely that PEDs alone could have fueled such East African domination for 50 years, and all athletes from 5 continents would have idly let that happen.

Coevett wrote:

But times stopped improving once the EPO testing became better, and in fact largely declined, at trend that continued with the ABP and now with more stringent testing in Kenya. The population of Kenya was 35.07 million in 2004, today it's just under 50 million. Are these 'systems' not in place anymore?

The Kenyans did not dominate cross country from the early 1980s. The two greatest cross country runners of the 80's were Paul Kipcoech and John Ngugi. Kipcoech died in an El Doret hospital at age 32 from an 'illness' that had mysteriously forced him to retire in 85. Ngugi, who did dominate in the late 80's, refused to take an out-of-competition drug test in 1993 received a four-year suspension.

In short, you're a racist doping apologist rekrunner and full of $hi t.

Kenyan dominance has been built from peds from the start, from Kenio in 68 to the cross country 'domination' of the 80's and to Kiprop and today.

Coevett wrote:

Because you revealed the reason for your sickening full-time doping apologism - to maintain the myth that East Africans are naturally superior runners who Westerners can't compete with (unless supposedly East Africa is at war or the people suffering from a famine etc). And it's getting pretty sick now with the constant stream of busts coming out of there.

East Africa did not dominate cross country from the early 80's. They might have had the most strength in depth but, they didn't consistently win the individual title until the late 80's. Cross country went into steep decline in Europe from the early 80's.

You're talking nonsense about their 'system'. If they can have 'systems' in place that can produce top talent, then they could have perfectly well have had blood doping systems in place with absolutely zero testing or inspections back then. The fact that the first two great Kenyan xcountry runners of the decade both have suspicious histories points to that being the case.

As for 'money drying up, this is nonsense. Are you talking about prize money in Kenya or less money in the athletics circuit in Europe? I find it hard to believe that there is less money in athletics in Kenya today than in the 80s and 90s. The GDP of Kenya in 1980 was 7 billion, today it's 70 billion. In the meantime, running has become the national identity of Kenya, the main source of pride and something that probably has brought in literally hundreds of billions of dollars in the raised international profile it has brought to Kenya and subsequent growth in tourism, investment etc. Kenya recently broke the world record for attendance at a youth meet.

Young Kenyans will also have had superstar rolemodels for decades now, unlike the 80's Kenyan youth.

Kenya isn't dominating today any more (probably less) than it was in the 90s. And by your own admission there are more European coaches who have flooded there hoping to take advantage of the superman running genes that every schoolboy has (or pump them full of EPO, depending on your point of view).

You contradict yourself again, claiming I'm slandering Kenyan athletics with no proof (aside from bust after bust) and then point as evidence for that that the rest of the world's athletes haven't apparently done the same!!

Not to mention lots of athletes have pointed the finger at East (and North) African doping cheats, such as Nick Willis (and let's not forget David Torrence, who may have been murdered because of it).

rekrunner wrote:

LOLling wrote:

HA! When is the last time you joined Coevett in condemning a doper? Clearly far from "everytime" as proven by all recent examples.

I hereby condemn, for all time in the past, present, and future, all athletes in all sports in all of history, and all future instances hereafter, who intentionally dope against anti-doping rules, as well as all coaches, doctors, pharmacists, and any other support personnel who intentionally dope the athletes against anti-doping rules, like WADA, for reasons of fairness, health, and spirit of the sport.

I join Coevett everytime, in spirit, for the condemnation of intentional doping. Do I need to explicitly say that 400x a year, everytime an athlete is announced for suspension, then again for the ban? Is that the minimum standard of fealty? -- everyone must condemn every instance twice, or risk being labeled an apologist? Would that even work? That would make for very uninteresting discussion. But rest assured, I do not ever apologize for intentional doping against the anti-doping rules.

While Coevett largely focuses on the highly publicized Kenyan busts, in his quest to debunk genetics, he fails to join me in condemning the Indian, Russian, American, European, Chinese, Moroccan, Bahranian, etc. intentional doping, as well as doping in cycling, bodybuilding, and all the rest of Olympic and non-Olympic competitive sports.

This shouldn't prevent meaningful discussions about potential performance, or any other relevant facts.