Hardrock 100 leader DQ'd for receiving aid outside aid station

Fatmamma wrote:

...because he had completely crushed the yank competition. 30-60min penalty would have made sense.

Would have made sense by what standards?

" It's been reported he just took a sip, and a small amount of ice. "

Reported by Xavier. Who at first lied that he got anything at all. Then he must've figured out he got photographed and couldn't lie his way out of it, so he tried to bargain for a punishment that just doesn't exist in this race. He also claimed that others were around, so it's not like they were trying to hide anything, but there's no one else in the picture, and since he had a big lead, who else would've been there? I think he got snagged by bad luck of the photog happening upon him and the crew.

The photographer shows him accessing the back of their SUV, and says he saw someone digging in his pack, presumably putting stuff in there. Did he really just take a sip, or a lot more? Why believe anything he says?

Well I got the sip/ice from comments here or irunfar, so if it's originally from Xavier, fine.

Yes, the photographer even said that they were trying to hide anything. It's not just Xavier 's word there. Why do you thing the event said that they believed it wasn't malicious? As for what you say was a lie, it's easily also seen as a different point of view plus something lost in the translation. See irunfar' s writeup.

zzzz wrote:

Yes, the photographer even said that they were NOT trying to hide anything.

Added the NOT.

This guy totally got DQ'ed because he's French.

pnw_runner wrote:

zzzz, you are correct in your assumption the races I've run have all been in thr contiguous US. Interesting to here that it's more relaxed in Alaska. Is it possible that some of them do have rules against outside aid but they're just not enforced? Just curious.

For races like Mount Marathon then obviously off trail is okay. :)

I haven't done all the races, but I'm aware of the rules for the ones that I have done, with no rules about outside aid. I just checked the rules for a race coming up this weekend (Crow Pass Crossing, with Zach Miller racing) that I used to do. It's under new management this year. It says under aid stations: There are none. Racers must be self sufficient. I interpret that as gotta take care youself, not that you can't take a bottle from a fellow racer or spectator. There's typically an informal aid station 4 miles from the finish, plus a lot of spectators the last 3miles handing out food/drink aid. Other mountain races often have informal aid.

Tony Russ was the bystander who reported the rules breach to the race organization, and he told iRunFar after the event that he observed Thévenard receiving aid in the form of water to drink and his crew members doing something with his pack.

This is so stupid.

They just wanted Jeff Browning to finally win something in his career.

Rabbit DQ wrote:

JamJam is an embarrassment to the sport. He’s the carrot top of ultra running.

Dude has put together a lot of quality work. He takes on a lot, all while being a legit runner and father at the end of day. He ran a freakin 2:50 road marathon at NYC while vlogging for christs sake, and took 8th at HardRock last year. Some of ya should take a hit or 2 before posting some of this nonsense, it's bad taste.

JamJam fan wrote:

Maybe they both should have been DQed, maybe neither, but a dude getting a beer from a spectator is different from the race leader getting ice and drinks from his crew in their crew car set up where they're not supposed to be (photo). Again, I don't have a strong opinion either way on either of them, but it is different.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37742688_1319425198191036_8641656885985935360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=1460a1caf2320aafc437212cc3d51d6e&oe=5C111EE9

Yeah, this is at mile 46 where bear creek trail starts over the 550 tunnel. You aren't really supposed to stop here let alone give aid. Just for kicks I had a look at the manual and it does say in two places that crews can't give aid outside of 400 yards of the crew approved aid stations. If you think the rules don't apply to you, someday you will get burnt.

As far as jam-jam, he should get a DQ just for his hair.

sdak wrote:

This is so stupid.

They just wanted Jeff Browning to finally win something in his career.

And if you look at his comments, the guy is a Browning fan and is glad he won.

His amazing sense of integrity stops at the point of not requiring his gf to have real breasts. I guess surgically modifying your body is ok, just don’t get a drink of water outside an aid station in a 100 mile race.

It’s intersting how people’s ethics will align with what they want to have happen rather than any true sense of right and wrong.

pnw_runner wrote:

For me personally, this specific judgement hinges on one fact: if Xavier did indeed initially deny that he received aid outside an aid station (as reported in the Durango Herald article someone linked above), then I think a DQ is justified. If he did not deny it and was upfront about it, I could believe it was an honest misunderstanding based on differences in the US/Euro scene, and in that case I believe a warning would be more appropriate.

The more I think about it, that’s pretty much my conclusion, too. Dale Garland probably got pissed that Xavier was lying to him about his infraction and send him packing....

KawauchiFTW_ wrote:

pnw_runner wrote:

For me personally, this specific judgement hinges on one fact: if Xavier did indeed initially deny that he received aid outside an aid station (as reported in the Durango Herald article someone linked above), then I think a DQ is justified. If he did not deny it and was upfront about it, I could believe it was an honest misunderstanding based on differences in the US/Euro scene, and in that case I believe a warning would be more appropriate.

The more I think about it, that’s pretty much my conclusion, too. Dale Garland probably got pissed that Xavier was lying to him about his infraction and send him packing....

I just saw the photos, and I have to say it looks a lot more like intentional aid rather than the casual "we just bumped into our girlfriends on the trail and happened to take a few sips of their water" being claimed.

The only flaw in this argument, however, is that the RD invited him to apply for the lottery again next year.

pnw_runner wrote:

KawauchiFTW_ wrote:

The more I think about it, that’s pretty much my conclusion, too. Dale Garland probably got pissed that Xavier was lying to him about his infraction and send him packing....

I just saw the photos, and I have to say it looks a lot more like intentional aid rather than the casual "we just bumped into our girlfriends on the trail and happened to take a few sips of their water" being claimed.

The only flaw in this argument, however, is that the RD invited him to apply for the lottery again next year.

hard to tell from the photo - crewing 100s is a lot of waiting around. it was warm, and they could have just pulled over there and opened the tailgate and sat in the back to wait for their runners who they were expecting sometime in the next hour or two.

Excluded from the circle jerk wrote:

https://twitter.com/jlivi2/status/1020820295551049729?s=20

I'm sorry but I have to call it on this tweeter. He may or may not have seen Xavier eating ice cream there, but that is not him in the picture. However, that is the front end of my truck (silver with black trim) in the picture, so at least there tweeter was indeed in Silverton. Carry on...

Respectfully Camille, while you are right the race organization could improve their rules on how to handle infractions, this was still a clear violation demanding a response of some kind. I assume you've seen the picture of the crew vehicle by now, quite a bit more troubling than a random spectator with a water bottle. Who knows what was really going on there. But let me add a couple relevant points:

1) I was at the Ouray aid station when he arrived well ahead of anyone else. He was completely relaxed and casual, as was his crew attending to him (I have pics as do many others). If he didn't fully re-stock himself then, there is no reason I can think of other than a pre-planned stop up the road at the tunnel (2 miles).

2) While I get the language barrier thing, please remember this was NOT his first HR100 - he was here in 2016 when the race was run in the same CW direction. He and Kilian came into/departed Ouray roughly together, much later he dropped to 3rd place. When interviewed after, he mentioned heat and altitude as factors, and the miles up to that tunnel are known as some of the hottest on course.

3) I ran this race in 2012, in the same direction, and while it is indeed true one can get tired/delirious in 100M races, the one thing I made sure of is both my crew and I understood the aid rule and did not violate it. Just getting into this race is hard enough, wasting the opportunity via such an unnecessary error would be a travesty. And I am anything but an ultra-elite. I would expect any person who makes a living in this sport would take the time to understand and follow the rules - they should be held to the highest standards, not lowest.

Good luck out there and keep on killing it!

CLF wrote:

I assume you've seen the picture of the crew vehicle by now, quite a bit more troubling than a random spectator with a water bottle. Who knows what was really going on there.

People mention the car like it's a big conspiracy. I don't get that. Imagine two young women seeing on a map that they can see their runner if they go down that road. They go, park, open the hatch to hang out outside the car and wait. It can just as easily be viewed as innocent, though ignorant of the rules if you can put yourself in their place for a minute in your mind. The snitch himself said they weren't trying to hid or do this in secret or anything like that. The race management themselves said that they didn't believe it was malicious cheating.

zzzz wrote:

CLF wrote:

I assume you've seen the picture of the crew vehicle by now, quite a bit more troubling than a random spectator with a water bottle. Who knows what was really going on there.

People mention the car like it's a big conspiracy. I don't get that. Imagine two young women seeing on a map that they can see their runner if they go down that road. They go, park, open the hatch to hang out outside the car and wait. It can just as easily be viewed as innocent, though ignorant of the rules if you can put yourself in their place for a minute in your mind. The snitch himself said they weren't trying to hid or do this in secret or anything like that. The race management themselves said that they didn't believe it was malicious cheating.

These are reasonable points you make, Believe it or not I like Xavier, I've met him briefly in Silverton before and he seems like a nice guy - the underdog type you root for for against the bigger names. So I've been struggling to figure out how this even happened, it just made no sense. Unfortunately the pic is still troubling as right or wrong it still gives off an impression that it was not just aid, but potentially pre-planned aid. If they had gone there innocently to spectate and he had just kept his distance from the vehicle he would have been OK. But once that picture came out it's the cat out of the bag syndrome - there was going to be controversy no matter what happened .

BTW - that spot is on the highway up (not down) from Ouray on the way to Silverton. It has trailhead parking making it a natural spot for easy spectating - no worries so long as no aid is provided.

Thanks for your comments.

He’s a Browning fan wrote:

sdak wrote:

This is so stupid.

They just wanted Jeff Browning to finally win something in his career.

And if you look at his comments, the guy is a Browning fan and is glad he won.

His amazing sense of integrity stops at the point of not requiring his gf to have real breasts. I guess surgically modifying your body is ok, just don’t get a drink of water outside an aid station in a 100 mile race.

It’s intersting how people’s ethics will align with what they want to have happen rather than any true sense of right and wrong.

+1 . Spot on comment. That’s why they waited 40miles before the DQ to see if Browning was going to catch him, when it was clear he wouldn’t , they dropped the DQ. If these were serious rules they wouldn’t have stuff like “ kiss the rock “and “ no whining.” Pathetic .