Your heart rate in a race is comparable to training. So, if your lactate threshold is at say 86% of max, that's true in training and a race. It's not like the body is able to go 3 to 5 beats per minute faster in a race than training and not notice the difference.
Depends on the blood volume. If you taper before a race, plasma volume often decreases. Lower blood volume= higher heart rate for a given effort.
This is a stickler point with me, because I’ve seen a PhD physiology candidate online refer to LT1 as the anaerobic threshold. And some scientific literature does the same, whereas, LT2 has been more commonly (and correctly, in my book) referred to the anaerobic threshold.
Yes that's bollocks. But what does 'Anaerobic Threshold' mean anyway?
Just more nonsense terminology. Lactate production ramping up means more fuel available for both Aerobic and Anaerobic work.
I was unaware of LT1 and LT2. Let's agree that Friel's terminology "LTHR" is incorrect. One of the tests Friel suggests to find what he calls LTHR is the 30 minute run I described earlier. That would find LT2, correct?
Realistically, most of us can't measure lactate during a run. We'd have to stop briefly for a blood test, right?
So, how do we use (or find) LT2 in the field? We'd look for the point where HR no longer tracks pace linearly and begins to increase faster than pace increases. Am I correct in that? That's the purpose of the 30 minute run test.
Then, that HR where the increase faster than pace increase began would be the HR you would not want to exceed during a tempo run. Is that correct?
If that's not correct, please explain. If it is correct, then I have another question.
I was unaware of LT1 and LT2. Let's agree that Friel's terminology "LTHR" is incorrect. One of the tests Friel suggests to find what he calls LTHR is the 30 minute run I described earlier. That would find LT2, correct?
Realistically, most of us can't measure lactate during a run. We'd have to stop briefly for a blood test, right?
So, how do we use (or find) LT2 in the field? We'd look for the point where HR no longer tracks pace linearly and begins to increase faster than pace increases. Am I correct in that? That's the purpose of the 30 minute run test.
Then, that HR where the increase faster than pace increase began would be the HR you would not want to exceed during a tempo run. Is that correct?
If that's not correct, please explain. If it is correct, then I have another question.
A lactate curve for a distance runner will plot inversely to a Heart rate v pace graph.
So usually jogging is Lactate level 1mmol, Marathon pace is 2 mmols, half marathon pace is 4 mmols etc. The blood Lactate is rising exponentially, but the heart rate rises linearly up to approximately 5k pace and then flattens out at faster paces.
However cardiac drift can happen at any pace that causes plasma to be shifted out of the blood. On a long run, this is a symptom of dehydration and during shorter faster work this is to help your heart pump red blood cells faster, but this point is worthy of a few threads in its own right.
I was unaware of LT1 and LT2. Let's agree that Friel's terminology "LTHR" is incorrect. One of the tests Friel suggests to find what he calls LTHR is the 30 minute run I described earlier. That would find LT2, correct?
Realistically, most of us can't measure lactate during a run. We'd have to stop briefly for a blood test, right?
So, how do we use (or find) LT2 in the field? We'd look for the point where HR no longer tracks pace linearly and begins to increase faster than pace increases. Am I correct in that? That's the purpose of the 30 minute run test.
Then, that HR where the increase faster than pace increase began would be the HR you would not want to exceed during a tempo run. Is that correct?
If that's not correct, please explain. If it is correct, then I have another question.
A lactate curve for a distance runner will plot inversely to a Heart rate v pace graph.
1.So usually jogging is Lactate level 1mmol, Marathon pace is 2 mmols, half marathon pace is 4 mmols etc.
2.The blood Lactate is rising exponentially, but the heart rate rises linearly up to approximately 5k pace and then flattens out at faster paces.
3.However cardiac drift can happen at any pace that causes plasma to be shifted out of the blood. On a long run, this is a symptom of dehydration and during shorter faster work this is to help your heart pump red blood cells faster, but this point is worthy of a few threads in its own right.
1. I understand #1, but since I can't measure my blood lactate in mmol while running, I can't use it while running to modify my pace. Is there a way to measure blood lactate while running? If so, tell us what device to use.
3. Understood.
2. This is unclear to me. You're saying that HR and pace increase linearly while blood lactate rises exponentially to a point and then levels off? Is that correct?
In my experience, HR and pace increase in a straight line until I reach a certain HR. I can maintain that pace and HR until my fitness gives out.
However, if I go just a little faster than that pace, my HR begins to climb and my ability to maintain that slightly faster pace is significantly shorter.
(I'm going to use old times from 15 years ago because I no longer do distance training.)
Let me give you an example. From the low point of my tempo zone to the highest point, my pace varies by a relatively linear 4.5 to 5.0 seconds per heart beat.Then, a slightly faster pace will cause my HR to begin to increase just to maintain that pace.
For example, at 9:00 per mile pace, my HR might be 148. At 8:55 pace, HR would be 149 and stay there. At 8:50, HR would be 150; at 8:45, HR would be 151 and so on until I hit my defection point at 162 at around 7:50 pace. So far, HR and pace have increased linearly.
However, if I go to 7:40 pace, my HR does not stabilize at 164. It gradually begins to climb just to maintain 7:40.
I'm guessing here, but the deflection point for me at 162 is my LT2. Is that correct?
I didn't want to confuse my previous post by asking another question so I'm asking it here.
One of my complaints with HR training is that the tempo zone is extremely wide... about 12 heart beats for me. For me, the difference between the lower level of this zone and the upper level is 60 seconds/mile difference in pace! That's so wide as to nearly useless.
To me, a more exact HR is needed. That's why I've advocated the Joe Friel 30-min run method to determine the upper tempo zone HR.
If you know a better method that runners can do themselves, what is it?
I didn't want to confuse my previous post by asking another question so I'm asking it here.
One of my complaints with HR training is that the tempo zone is extremely wide... about 12 heart beats for me. For me, the difference between the lower level of this zone and the upper level is 60 seconds/mile difference in pace! That's so wide as to nearly useless.
To me, a more exact HR is needed. That's why I've advocated the Joe Friel 30-min run method to determine the upper tempo zone HR.
If you know a better method that runners can do themselves, what is it?
My Garmin 345 has computed my Lactate Threshold Pace, based on looking at the HR data vs velocity AND (if I understand their sales literature, which I haven’t looked at in a couple of years) looking at HR variability (changes in ‘between-beat’) data at various paces. It’s objective is to provide a LTHR that is similar to what Friel’s method is trying to determine.
A lactate curve for a distance runner will plot inversely to a Heart rate v pace graph.
1.So usually jogging is Lactate level 1mmol, Marathon pace is 2 mmols, half marathon pace is 4 mmols etc.
2.The blood Lactate is rising exponentially, but the heart rate rises linearly up to approximately 5k pace and then flattens out at faster paces.
3.However cardiac drift can happen at any pace that causes plasma to be shifted out of the blood. On a long run, this is a symptom of dehydration and during shorter faster work this is to help your heart pump red blood cells faster, but this point is worthy of a few threads in its own right.
1. I understand #1, but since I can't measure my blood lactate in mmol while running, I can't use it while running to modify my pace. Is there a way to measure blood lactate while running? If so, tell us what device to use.
3. Understood.
2. This is unclear to me. You're saying that HR and pace increase linearly while blood lactate rises exponentially to a point and then levels off? Is that correct?
In my experience, HR and pace increase in a straight line until I reach a certain HR. I can maintain that pace and HR until my fitness gives out.
However, if I go just a little faster than that pace, my HR begins to climb and my ability to maintain that slightly faster pace is significantly shorter.
(I'm going to use old times from 15 years ago because I no longer do distance training.)
Let me give you an example. From the low point of my tempo zone to the highest point, my pace varies by a relatively linear 4.5 to 5.0 seconds per heart beat.Then, a slightly faster pace will cause my HR to begin to increase just to maintain that pace.
For example, at 9:00 per mile pace, my HR might be 148. At 8:55 pace, HR would be 149 and stay there. At 8:50, HR would be 150; at 8:45, HR would be 151 and so on until I hit my defection point at 162 at around 7:50 pace. So far, HR and pace have increased linearly.
However, if I go to 7:40 pace, my HR does not stabilize at 164. It gradually begins to climb just to maintain 7:40.
I'm guessing here, but the deflection point for me at 162 is my LT2. Is that correct?
In this case, you are experiencing cardiac drift.
In a case where you don't experience cardiac drift, your heart rate will be only slightly higher despite a big increase in pace. That's why some people call it Anaerobic Threshold, but really your oxygen uptake is approaching and maintaining a peak or a plateau whilst the Anaerobic contribution may be increasing also.
My Garmin 345 has computed my Lactate Threshold Pace, based on looking at the HR data vs velocity AND (if I understand their sales literature, which I haven’t looked at in a couple of years) looking at HR variability (changes in ‘between-beat’) data at various paces. It’s objective is to provide a LTHR that is similar to what Friel’s method is trying to determine.
It’s objective is to provide a LTHR that is similar to what Friel’s method is trying to determine, and a corresponding pace. That pace typically is in the ballpark of Half-Marathon pace.
A lactate curve for a distance runner will plot inversely to a Heart rate v pace graph.
1.So usually jogging is Lactate level 1mmol, Marathon pace is 2 mmols, half marathon pace is 4 mmols etc.
2.The blood Lactate is rising exponentially, but the heart rate rises linearly up to approximately 5k pace and then flattens out at faster paces.
3.However cardiac drift can happen at any pace that causes plasma to be shifted out of the blood. On a long run, this is a symptom of dehydration and during shorter faster work this is to help your heart pump red blood cells faster, but this point is worthy of a few threads in its own right.
In my experience, HR and pace increase in a straight line until I reach a certain HR. I can maintain that pace and HR until my fitness gives out.
However, if I go just a little faster than that pace, my HR begins to climb and my ability to maintain that slightly faster pace is significantly shorter.
(I'm going to use old times from 15 years ago because I no longer do distance training.)
Let me give you an example. From the low point of my tempo zone to the highest point, my pace varies by a relatively linear 4.5 to 5.0 seconds per heart beat.Then, a slightly faster pace will cause my HR to begin to increase just to maintain that pace.
For example, at 9:00 per mile pace, my HR might be 148. At 8:55 pace, HR would be 149 and stay there. At 8:50, HR would be 150; at 8:45, HR would be 151 and so on until I hit my defection point at 162 at around 7:50 pace. So far, HR and pace have increased linearly.
However, if I go to 7:40 pace, my HR does not stabilize at 164. It gradually begins to climb just to maintain 7:40.
I'm guessing here, but the deflection point for me at 162 is my LT2. Is that correct?
For now, ignore the other guy’s answer(s) that bring cardiac drift and changes in plasma volume into the equation.)
What you describe is what typically happens. The Heart Rate rises ~linearly with a ~linear rise in blood lactate; as paces get faster, the heart is working harder to move blood and ‘clear’ lactate. However, there comes a limit in how fast the heart can beat. Up to ~88-90% MaxHR, the heart beats fast enough to ’clear’ lactate; running steadily at that pace, which is the LT2 pace (aka Maximal Lactate Steady State), lactate is being cleared as fast as it is being dumped into the bloodstream. When running faster than that pace, lactate will not be cleared fast enough to maintain a steady state in the bloodstream. It will start accumulating exponentially beyond that point in the bloodstream, and the muscle fatigue will happen much more rapidly.
It is transported from muscle cells via the blood because Lactate is an essential fuel for aerobic metabolism, and with Lactate release, some ATP is also released for Anaerobic metabolism.
I didn't want to confuse my previous post by asking another question so I'm asking it here.
One of my complaints with HR training is that the tempo zone is extremely wide... about 12 heart beats for me. For me, the difference between the lower level of this zone and the upper level is 60 seconds/mile difference in pace! That's so wide as to nearly useless.
To me, a more exact HR is needed. That's why I've advocated the Joe Friel 30-min run method to determine the upper tempo zone HR.
If you know a better method that runners can do themselves, what is it?
The ‘tempo zone’ you describe is Zone 2 in a three zone training system. It is wide. It’s ~80-88% Max Heart Rate.
When someone says they are doing a sub-threshold run, that typically meant they were training in the upper portion of that Zone, but staying below LT2. However, with popularized Ingrebritsens (spelling) Training, where they sometimes perform two ‘threshold’ sessions per day, they will typically be operating in the lower regions of Zone 2.
For now, ignore the other guy’s answer(s) that bring cardiac drift and changes in plasma volume into the equation.)
What you describe is what typically happens. The Heart Rate rises ~linearly with a ~linear rise in blood lactate; as paces get faster, the heart is working harder to move blood and ‘clear’ lactate. However, there comes a limit in how fast the heart can beat. Up to ~88-90% MaxHR, the heart beats fast enough to ’clear’ lactate; running steadily at that pace, which is the LT2 pace (aka Maximal Lactate Steady State), lactate is being cleared as fast as it is being dumped into the bloodstream. When running faster than that pace, lactate will not be cleared fast enough to maintain a steady state in the bloodstream. It will start accumulating exponentially beyond that point in the bloodstream, and the muscle fatigue will happen much more rapidly.
Question: Okay, so lactate is accumulating faster than it can be cleared. Yet the runner is still maintaining that pace for a while.
Doesn't the anaerobic system kick in to help out at this point? That's what I've been led to believe for years.
Interesting. I did some tapering last week before the race. Maybe this can be one of the explanations for a spike in heart rate. But what's interesting is that meanwhile I had a 15-20 BPM increase in HR, the RPE did not increase that much from what I am used to. What could be the explanation for this? Increased lactacte threshold? Adrenaline?
Also, does anyone know if this drastic increase in HR is a concern for a longer distance such as the Marathon? It's very hard to know as I never experience this during training and so I have no idea to how my body will react to endure these high Heart rate for a long period. Uncharted territory, so to speak.
Interesting. I did some tapering last week before the race. Maybe this can be one of the explanations for a spike in heart rate. But what's interesting is that meanwhile I had a 15-20 BPM increase in HR, the RPE did not increase that much from what I am used to. What could be the explanation for this? Increased lactacte threshold? Adrenaline?
Also, does anyone know if this drastic increase in HR is a concern for a longer distance such as the Marathon? It's very hard to know as I never experience this during training and so I have no idea to how my body will react to endure these high Heart rate for a long period. Uncharted territory, so to speak.
This is why I don't believe it's a good idea to use a heart rate monitor in training or racing.
The blood volume/hear rate variability is just going to doubt yourself, when you should be gaining confidence by learning how your body works from running by feel.
Maybe if you know why these changes are happening you can use the data wisely. I believe Joe Friel has written about this many years ago.
Question: Okay, so lactate is accumulating faster than it can be cleared. Yet the runner is still maintaining that pace for a while.
Doesn't the anaerobic system kick in to help out at this point? That's what I've been led to believe for years.
Bump.
The anaerobic system is always working even in deepest sleep.
When you're starting to get out of breath, this is due to accumulated hydrogen ions being buffered by the bicarbonate system a product of which is extra carbon dioxide which has to be breathed out. Added to this is the fact that you are at or near your maximal oxygen uptake.
So when people talk about "going anaerobic" this is what they are referring to, but it's not really accurate, because you are using much more aerobic metabolism than anaerobic.
The anaerobic system is always working even in deepest sleep.
When you're starting to get out of breath, this is due to accumulated hydrogen ions being buffered by the bicarbonate system a product of which is extra carbon dioxide which has to be breathed out. Added to this is the fact that you are at or near your maximal oxygen uptake.
So when people talk about "going anaerobic" this is what they are referring to, but it's not really accurate, because you are using much more aerobic metabolism than anaerobic.
Ah, thanks. I had just assumed that it was obvious that the shift was gradual and not like an on/off switch! I'll be more careful in using the the term anaerobic in the future. Again, thanks.
I've made an interesting observation with my HR since being pregnant with twins. It seems like my body doesn't allow me to go anaerobic, which I guess is good because I later read that anaerobic cardio is dangerous in pregnancy. It is just weird that my body seems to do it without me trying. I track my HR with a Whoop band I've had for over a year. Before I was pregnant, I'd have lots of runs in the anaerobic zone. Of course the fatigue of pregnancy has slowed me down a ton and I'm only running maybe 20 mpw or so (down from 50-60), but I figured I'd hop in a couple of 5Ks and try some light speed work just to keep me sane. At no time has my HR gone anaerobic even though the effort was there. In my 5K last weekend, I looked at the data and my HR was almost a straight line across the total amount of time spent running, including the warm-up, even when my pace sped up or slowed down.