one more LR thread about training in warm/hot/muggy summer weather

You ever happen to run on any fresh blacktop in the summer? It's got to make it at least 10 degrees hotter. I had a 10 mile easy run planned for yesterday afternoon (temp 86, dewpoint 76). About half of my route had a brand new coat of asphalt on it. It was like running on the surface of the sun. I looped by my house at 5 miles to get another water bottle and just ended up in the pool. I had to throw in the towel.

Even though I'm about to leave the south and return to the midwest in about a month, I'll put my $.02 in. I live in NC so I don't have to deal with the absurd humidity of Florida or the rest of the gulf coast, but I'm still dealing with dew points usually right on 70 degrees most of the time.

In my peak summer training (circa 2015) I was up at 7 and out the door within 30 minutes, usually with something light to eat (usually something along the lines of a nutrigrain bar or banana) and roughly 12 oz of water. Right now I'm doing the same but starting at 8, which makes thing noticeably more difficult by the end of the run (as the sun starts getting higher and temps rise). I don't have any water or anything during the run (too lazy to plan ahead) but I'm sure it would help. I'll do late afternoon runs of 3-4 miles as doubles at around 5pm, when the raw temp is hot but the humidity isn't as bad and the UV index is starting to drop from its peak. I haven't really even tried any workouts this summer and don't really plan on it unless I get a random cool day thrown in. In the past when I tried to do a tempo or something it never ended well so I figured I would just build mileage and get acclimated.

I do think training in humidity is a fantastic stimulus if you do it right. It sucks to feel like you are just trudging along at a slow pace all summer but I've had it really pay off once fall comes around. Several times I've traveled to a cooler locale in the middle of summer training and been pleasantly surprised how easy it felt to let loose as much as a minute faster per mile at the same heart rate level.

The problem is not just the day to day stress, but he cumulative toll over the course of the summer. I was out running at 6:00 am on Friday, with a 6:25 sunrise. Light was coming over the horizon, but no direct sun for the first half hour or so. Got in 16.5 miles. Took in 6 pounds or so of fluids, but was still down 5 pounds when I weighed myself after my run. That means 12 pounds of fluids and associated electrolytes were lost. I took in a 32 ounce Powerade, a 28 ounce Body Armour, a 24 ounce chocolate milk, some water and 6 salt/electrolyte capsules, so I may have made up most of the electrolytes for that day, but the constancy of the fight to keep up just wears you down. I can't win when I'm losing 6-7% of my body weight on just one run.

Southeast Texas here (Texas-Louisianna Border on the Gulf), and I pretty much only run in the very early morning. 4 AM most days, as this gives me enough time to hit 10-12 miles before work. But on weekends, I try to get a little more sleep and usually head out @ 7, but find it's a whole 'nother world running with the sun up. Lately, on these runs, even 9 miles-ish is a bit of a death march. The weekday runs @ upper 70's and high 90% humidty in the dark are much more bearable than mid-upper 80's but 80% humidty in the sun.

Recently, disgusted with myself for running so few miles one Saturday morning, I said F-it and went for a late evening double and was surprised that it was actually almost pleasant. 90's with 70% humidity and very little direct sunlight from the setting sun (a bit more breeze too) seemed almost bearable. Another benefit I didn't expect was that since I wasn't just waking up, I was essentially 'warmed up' and was able to run faster earlier in the run and tempo a bit faster than my morning runs.

Another coping mechanism I've resorted to is ditching the shirt and breaking out the short-shorts. When you can pinpoint 1.5 miles run by the first bead of sweat the drips off your head, and your shorts are soaked by mile 5 and your shoes start to squeak cause they are soaked by mile 7, clothing is just an extra burden.

I'm in my mid 50's and in pretty decent shape but I suspect I look a bit foolish to passing people but just don't give a F.

The funny thing about putting up with this crap for the better part of 8 months a year is that when we do finally get some cooler days, I feel OBLIGATED to take advantage of them.

Grew up in the northeast and moved to Florida nearly half of my 60 years ago. Hot weather in the summer in the Northeast I treated very differently than I have living on Florida's Gulf Coast which offers next to no relief of hot humid conditions even than some small relief which may occur in the northern part of the state.

A heatwave in the Northeast is going to go away. You can wait it out by cutting back training volume if necessary and sometimes this is simply for a few days. While I would struggle if forced to run in the middle of the day, most of the time I could just run after the sun went down and didn't have any problem at all. I certainly wouldn't want to be running a hard track session during the summer but I always looked at the summer as a good time to basically put in some decent mileage and maybe run in some local midweek 5ks for speedwork anyway. There were plenty of those available.

Running in Florida or any tropical area during the summer is a completely different animal. It is not going away anytime soon. Some thoughts:

1. Have very low expectations of being able to "train". You'll be able to get your run in but I've found that any attempt at running a goal oriented track workout is going to be a waste of time and will have long term negative effect on future performance. Need some speed for your legs. Place a pure speed workout in the weekly program of 6 x 60-100m even as a second separate workout on a given day.

2. As alluded to above, the heat is cumulative. You may not feel it day 1, you may not feel it day 2 but eventually you will feel run down and you have to respect this or you, again, potentially suffer longer term negative effect on performance. Hydration is very very important however I have found it impossible to hydrate to the point in which I can apparently replace the nutrients lost with continued running (even relatively easy) day after day in the high temp/humidity of the state.

3. Racing, for me, is a complete waste of time at this time of year. This includes simple very local 5ks just to get the legs moving. It's not worth bothering for me. I don't even think about competing between May and at least September in Florida. My competitive year has been completely re-arranged from what it was up north. Up north the winter was recovery build up time in which I enjoyed running in the snow and cold with little concern for pace. Speed was typically limited to strides or the occasional winter speed run. The competitive seasons were spring and fall with some in the summer. In Florida it is Fall through Spring or October through April. When I was really competitive I'd look for races in May up north to focus on because that would be when I'd be in the best shape and right before a Florida break which is in the summer.

4. Be smart. Run prior to sun up or sun down. Understand that right after sunrise can be some of the worst conditions you'll have. Right before sundown is a challenge during some periods, particularly late June early July, because of the threat of thunderstorms. So you have to be careful and pay attention to forecasts and radar as to when to avoid lightning. I'm not a morning runner (or person) so I run in the evening generally right as the sun is going down. By the time I finish, typically, conditions are palatable if not good.

5. Age plays into heat adjustment in some fashion. There was a time I could run during the summer in the middle of the day and seemingly suffer no more than had I done the same in the evening. That is not the case anymore. I really cannot do much during the heat of the day at all anymore.

6. Most importantly, each day is different in terms of how the heat is affecting me. Some days I feel fine and it doesn't phase me at all. Other days, with exactly the same conditions, I'm falling apart and have to cut things short. There appears to be no explanation for this phenomenon and there probably isn't one necessary. If I feel bad I listen to my body and take it easy or abort. There's no shame in that.

Smoove wrote:

The problem is not just the day to day stress, but he cumulative toll over the course of the summer. I was out running at 6:00 am on Friday, with a 6:25 sunrise. Light was coming over the horizon, but no direct sun for the first half hour or so. Got in 16.5 miles. Took in 6 pounds or so of fluids, but was still down 5 pounds when I weighed myself after my run. That means 12 pounds of fluids and associated electrolytes were lost. I took in a 32 ounce Powerade, a 28 ounce Body Armour, a 24 ounce chocolate milk, some water and 6 salt/electrolyte capsules, so I may have made up most of the electrolytes for that day, but the constancy of the fight to keep up just wears you down. I can't win when I'm losing 6-7% of my body weight on just one run.

Smoove, my friend, I feel you on this. 6 pounds of fluids is SIX PINTS. That's a half gallon plus a quart, if I'm not wrong. Crazy. You're right. We can't win if that's what it takes. Something has to give, and will give.

Just for the heck of it, I dug back into my Garmin training log. June 7, 2009. At 7:15 AM, age 51, I went out on the same course I ran this morning and ran 15 miles in 2:08:26, for an average pace of 8:34--very good for that time of the year--at an average HR of 148, which at that point was just under 75% of max. Completely aerobic. First mile at 9:12, last mile at 8:12.

So: a man 9 years younger than I am now. That's it, right? It was just an age thing.

No. I went to weatherunderground.com and found the weather. It wasn't "dry," but it was much, much dryer than the run I took this morning, and that, along with the cooler temperatures, made a LOT of difference. Dewpoints were 57-60%.

7:15 AM 64.4 °F - 57.2 °F 77% 29.99 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear

7:55 AM 68.0 °F - 57.2 °F 68% 30.00 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear

8:15 AM 69.8 °F - 57.2 °F 64% 30.00 in 10.0 mi South 3.5 mph - N/A Clear

8:55 AM 71.6 °F - 59.0 °F 64% 30.00 in 10.0 mi South 4.6 mph - N/A Clear

9:15 AM 73.4 °F - 60.8 °F 65% 30.00 in 10.0 mi SSE 3.5 mph - N/A Clear

9:35 AM 75.2 °F - 60.8 °F 61% 30.01 in 10.0 mi Calm Calm - N/A Clear

Notice that the skies were clear. So there was bright sun by midpoint in the run. But with cooler skies and especially with lower, non-steamy humidity, there was no danger zone.

I still say that there's some sort of bad mojo going on when you pump that humidity high at temperatures of 70+. I've had some great runs on drizzly 60 degree days. That 100% humidity, but it just doesn't feel that bad. Many years ago, people here at LR hipped me to the dewpoint and the way that it degrades performance. I always knew they were right, but the lesson is coming home to roost right about now, along with a long of cranky chickens.

Great post, Rolling! I'm going to re-read it and take notes.

Honestly, it's just great to hear from others that this hot weather thing is a thing, and should be taken seriously. I think most of us have put in the miles, and are used to the occasional bad/troubled/grind-it-out run. We thing we know where the guardrails are. We think we're getting smart. We think we've learned what we need to know from threads like this. Then we go out for a planned 12 miler, get out there early, bring lots of fluids--and still discover, step by step, that we're in a death march.

Today I literally spoke to the dead. In mile 8.5, heading back towards my 10-mile abort-now stopping point, I found myself talking to my late friend, Merrell Noden, a Sports Illustrated writer and 4:12 HS miler who used to come and visit with me right after I'd moved to Mississippi. He was ghostwriting a biography of Oprah's cousin (I believe) and one summer Sunday he and I took a 9-miler over the hills. By the time we got to mile 8, heading up a long hill, we were dying on the vine. I remember that. Hard core run. We fell through my front door and laid around for a long time, groaning and pounding Gatorade. I was talking to Merrell--talking to the dead--as I ran that last mile today. Hardest 10 miles in a long damned time. But a good day later.

FWIW, here's my smoothie recipe. Call is "post-run Mississippi smoothie."

Toss the following into a blender:

--berries, in whatever combination you desire: strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, whatever you've got

--one ripe banana. (Two will work.)

--2/3 cup (approx) Stonyfield lowfat vanilla yogurt or the equivalent

--1 T. strawberry or raspberry jam

--juice of half a lime

--3/4 to 1 C. orange juice. Pour it on, as needed

--one tray of ice cubes

Blend thoroughly. Add quite a bit of honey to taste--a few long squeezes, at least 1/3 of a cup or more. Find the sweet/tart level that works for you. If needed, add a few more ice cubes or--if too thick--a bit more OJ.

Been following this thread because I am also in a high heat/humidity area so I have found the discussion really interesting.

A couple of things I wanted to mention. First, the single best way to avoid extreme heat is to avoid the sun. Air temperature is air temperature, but add the direct sun beating down on you and it bakes you; it's like the opposite of "wind chill." Switching to running after dark may just be switching out one hassle for another, but I really have to strongly recommend it. Second is more of a question: you know how the right kind of training is supposed to teach your body to use fats more efficiently as fuel... doing glycogen "depletion runs"... Well...

Can a person get physiologically more adept at performing at sub-optimal hydration? I'm sincerely asking, not suggesting anything.

One final thing, and maybe controversial. It's at least reasonable to ask how much performance degradation from heat/hydration issues is due to physical limitations and how much is caused by the higher than expected "perceived effort" on hot days. If the "central governor" model of Noakes has some validity, it would make sense that our brains might be advocating an overabundance of caution.

Personally, I deal with the heat by avoiding sunlight, being somewhat diligent about prehydrating, training with the guidance of a HRM and basically saving summer for base building rather than intensity (which Smoove can't do because of Chicago). I never hydrate on runs that are less than 90 minutes. When I do hydrate, I go with water only. Not advocating anything, just adding data to the thread. Cheers.

I don't know how i dealt with the heat and humidity while growing up just outside of DC. Of course it's not as bad as in the South, but still miserable a times. It's been 4 years since I moved to Europe, and have lost any tolerance I had to high dew points... and even "mild" heat for that matter. I spent all summer 2016 back home, and stopped running by the end of june. It was so muggy even at 6:00am, and it didn't feel much better running at night. European summers keep getting hotter and hotter, and earlier. I'd love to move somewhere with consistently cool weather, such as Ireland or Scotland...

After reading all these accounts of summer running south of the Mason Dixon line, I have resolved never to complain again about weather conditions in NE Ohio.

We had relief this past weekend with predawn temp low 60’s and DP 60 degrees. Mist was hanging over the fields and you could almost drink the air. Nearly pleasant. Still didn’t run very fast ...

Kudzu, no protein in your smoothie?

KudzuRunner wrote:

If I'm running 90 to 120 minutes on a summer Sunday long run, and I'm rehydrating myself with the help of several bottles cached along my running route--something I've done for the past 15 years--should one of those bottles be Gatorade or another sports drink? If I'm doing a loop run in a park that's going to take me 75-80 minutes, should I bring along not a pair of water bottles, but a water bottle and a Gatorade bottle?

And while we're at it: is Gatorade the sport drink of choice for a runner (non-Ultra) doing those sorts of summer runs? Or has another sport drink, readily available, turned out to be the choice of the field? I've defaulted to Gatorade for a long time, perhaps because it's been around for decades, but perhaps there's a better choice.

I stay away from Gatorade - it has fructose, which tends to slosh around in my stomach. I use Skratch - no fructose, very tasty. Osmo, Clif, and Tailwind are all good choices, too.

Lane10 wrote:

After reading all these accounts of summer running south of the Mason Dixon line, I have resolved never to complain again about weather conditions in NE Ohio.

We had relief this past weekend with predawn temp low 60’s and DP 60 degrees. Mist was hanging over the fields and you could almost drink the air. Nearly pleasant. Still didn’t run very fast ...

Kudzu, no protein in your smoothie?

All that lowfat yogurt: lots of protein.

I'm dealing with this crap again, as I do every summer. I've never been a good heat runner and I've never run a pr (unless it was some off distance) from mid may - early october. The past couple I've had heat indexes of high 90s when I ran after 7 pm! It was around 103-105 during the day. I've found the best way to beat the heat is to go immediately upon waking and/or however many minutes you intend to run -30 before sunset. The best time of day is civil twilight, that 30 mins of time where the sun has set but its still light enough to see on the roads. If I have a workout planned, I'll time it so civil twilight is used for the bulk of it and just cool down in the dark or not at all.

Also shade makes a huge difference in the summer! Even early or late in the day, find a park or tree lined neighborhoods. Getting eaten alive by biting flies seems like an ok trade off to having my body robbed of water.

With these tricks, you'll only be a little slower than you would in good conditions.

SB runner. wrote:

Good weather year round in Santa Barbara. Nothing to complain here. :)

Well isn't this just the typical Santa Barbara response. "Golly gee, I have it all figured out, why doesn't everyone else?" You simple-minded lump of blubber.

All that lowfat yogurt: lots of protein.[/quote]

Of course ... missed that. Must still be dehydrated from my morning run.

Rolling was here wrote:

4. Be smart. Run prior to sun up or sun down. Understand that right after sunrise can be some of the worst conditions you'll have. Right before sundown is a challenge during some periods, particularly late June early July, because of the threat of thunderstorms. So you have to be careful and pay attention to forecasts and radar as to when to avoid lightning. I'm not a morning runner (or person) so I run in the evening generally right as the sun is going down. By the time I finish, typically, conditions are palatable if not good.

Good post, but I found this particularly interesting. I grew up in central Florida, and have been living in North Carolina for the last couple years. It's unbelievable how much better the weather is up here. I still suffer when I do something stupid like start a 2h long run at 8am, and still see a ~10 second/mile drop off in workout times, but the heat doesn't pick up until much later (late May to mid-June) and drops off much earlier (by October at the latest). That's totally different than back in Florida where I remember being tired by May of the heat, and and a few Christmas runs where I came back soaked with sweat.

I say all of that to circle back to your point about the storms in Florida. I have totally gotten out of the habit of waiting for the mid-afternoon storms that always rolled in to go for runs. People up here tend to think I'm crazy just for running in storms. But, man, every summer back in Florida I specifically remember looking for the biggest, baddest, reddest blips on the weather radar with the hopes that I could get a run in without melting. Doing that for years and not getting struck by lightening is probably why I now lack a healthy fear of lightening (except on golf courses--no way).

I lived near Madison for several years. Yes, the humidity is awful, although getting to run the Natchez Trace made it worthwhile :-)

What part of the state are you in?

I lived in Bangkok for about 12 years and ran quite a bit while I was there. The heat and humidity there was a lot more than I ever experienced running during the summer in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, or southern Illinois. A typical late December day would be around 70 at 5:30am when I went out to run with maybe 70% humidity. Later in the day it might be around 85-90. Loved running then during the maybe six weeks of winter we got. The summer was a different story. Generally around 79-83 with 90% humidity at 5:30am. In the afternoon it would be anywhere from 95-100 with the same humidity. I tried to run in the mornings but I also ran a lot in the afternoons.