Historians, who is the greatest female HS distance runner in US history? Could it already be Katelyn Tuohy?

NotOldEnoughYet wrote:

People need to consider that competition wasn't as deep on the women's side during Decker's era. Tuohy ran a 4:38 1600m indoor during a relay which is essentially the same as Decker's 4:40 indoor world record at the time.

Decker ran a 4:37.4 mile when she was fourteen years old. That same year, she ran 2:02.4 in the 800, and was ranked #1 in the U.S. and #4 in the world at that distance. When she was fifteen, she ran a world indoor record of 2:02.4 for 880 yards (around 2:01.5 for 800 meters), and won the U.S. vs. U.S.S.R. 800 in 2:02.3.

I don't know what Decker ran or could have run at longer distances when she was in high school. The longest Olympic distance for women was only 1500 meters in 1972, up from 800 meters in 1968 -- but Decker had great natural endurance. She ran her first marathon when she was twelve (the day before running the 440 and 880 in a track meet) and eventually set the world record for 10,000 meters. (She also had excellent natural speed; she ran 23.7 for 220 yards and 52+ for 400 meters when she was a teenager.)

Those of us who believe that Decker is a pretty obvious choice are well aware of changes in depth of competition over the years. We are also aware that the human species hasn't evolved that much over the last few decades, and it is not implausible that the best female high school runner in U.S. history was, in fact, born almost sixty years ago.

The comments about Decker's accomplishments as a HS runner (and Heald's, too) are much appreciated.

Considering Tuohy and Cain, one would need to acknowledge that Cain's best marks were run slightly older -- in another year or couple of years, you will be able to make a better comparison of those two. As noted above, Tuohy will be 16yo in August. Cain (dob 3 May 1996) turned 16 in 2012. As of the 2012 season, her bests were 2:03.34 (HS competition, iirc) and 4:11.01 (World Junior Ch).

A lot of development happens in a year or two, at that age. Along with all the other factors that have been mentioned, better for now to compare them as of the season when they turned age 16, since that's all the data we have for one of those in the comparison group, Tuohy.

IMO, Decker still looks like the best, as of age 16.

Here is a thread with school mate talking about Mary Decker and her HS years.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2515252

There is some validity to only talking about HS runners V. other HS runners and nothing before say 1980 since many states did not have girls HS (or even college !) programs.

When we talk HS aged runners Ryun and Decker period

Thucydides wrote:

The comments about Decker's accomplishments as a HS runner (and Heald's, too) are much appreciated.

And your choice of name is much appreciated. :)

wineturtle wrote:

Get your head out of the sand wrote:

Anybody that says anyone but Ryun and Decker have their head in the sand. Ryun made an Olympic team, beat the WR holder and ran under 4 how many times? He was completely dominant.

Decker had won indoor records at age 16 and beat world class Runner’s at 14.

+ 1

Lots of stuff happened in the Dark Ages before Twitter.

Ryun and Decker had impact on the International stage.

Yes, they had impact on the international stage, but that was back when the international stage was pitifully shallow. Highschoolers in the 1950s and 1960s faced senior-level runners who had to balance running with full-time careers. Highschoolers in the 2000s and 2010s face senior-level runners who use running AS their full-time careers.

Moreover, an argument can very easily be made that Ryun lacks much of the "distance" aspect of a distance runner. No prominent cross country performances, nothing substantial for any distance above the mile.

It's 16 at the end of the year to be eligible (i.e. the year you were born) Touhy was eligible for Bupa and JR worlds this year but it appears she is avoiding both those for reasons unknown. But I suspect some burnout, going after world best indoor times every other weekend can't be good for the long term.

I don't believe the mileage claims, plus she is obviously doing a lot of other "core" work and other cross training. But regardless the question proposed was is she already the best ever not "does she have potential to be the best ever". (Which obviously she does)

Cain won a Jr world title and made a world champs final, we haven't seen Touhy do anything close to that and won't for this year. She has got arguments for XC but until we see her run Footlocker won't know for sure how good she is.

I agree with those that have mentioned Little Mary Decker and Debbie Held. Please add Cathy (Schiro) O'Brien to the list of fabulous US high school distance runners. 2:34:24 at the first marathon trials for women, 1984, at age 16

I watched Katelyn run at the Milrose Games, and it was not impressive. Be careful how much you put on this young lady.

Seyta wrote:

Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz.

Are you that ignorant?

Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........

Melrose Cali Boy wrote:

I watched Katelyn run at the Milrose Games, and it was not impressive. Be careful how much you put on this young lady.

This is true, but also it’s probably the only bad race she’s run in her life. I think the pressure is never to expect Katelyn to have a bad race. Hasty ran a 2:27 1K at the VA Showcase a couple weeks before his 4:00, and has had a number of bad races as well, but no one gave him as much grief about it as Katelyn got. It happens for runners, in fact incredibly often even at the biggest stage. I think people shouldn’t expect records every time she runs. She’s a great runner but there needs to be a long term focus.

This makes it pretty clear. It was Decker. Thanks for the insight.

Seyta wrote:

wineturtle wrote:

+ 1

Lots of stuff happened in the Dark Ages before Twitter.

Ryun and Decker had impact on the International stage.

Yes, they had impact on the international stage, but that was back when the international stage was pitifully shallow. Highschoolers in the 1950s and 1960s faced senior-level runners who had to balance running with full-time careers. Highschoolers in the 2000s and 2010s face senior-level runners who use running AS their full-time careers.

Decker was competing against athletes from the Soviet-Bloc countries who were provided with every conceivable advantage by the State - from drugs to housing to full-time trainers.

Take a look at the times of the women's 800 final in Montreal and tell me there was no competition in Decker's era.

Rank Athlete Nation Time Notes

1 Tatyana Kazankina Soviet Union 1:54.94 WR

2 Nikolina Shtereva Bulgaria 1:55.42

3 Elfi Zinn East Germany 1:55.60

4 Anita Weiß East Germany 1:55.74

5 Svetlana Styrkina Soviet Union 1:56.44

6 Svetla Zlateva Bulgaria 1:57.21

7 Doris Gluth East Germany 1:58.99

8 Mariana Suman Romania 2:02.21

Who gives a d$$ about HS "best ever"? MICHAEL GRANVILLE by some measures was the best US HS athlete ever - look at how his times still stack up - but what did he accomplish AFTER HS? I see his name in the Olympic and WC medal/honor roll... NOT! NEVER! ZIP!

So therefore, JimboR is still the greatest ever. 1.39 etc. you know.

Ritz never ran Balboa Park. So?

StormSoup wrote:

Seyta wrote:

Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz.

Are you that ignorant?

Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........

Thank you. Not sure I agree that Lindgren is the best, but only ignorance could keep him off the short list.

My dark horse is Craig Virgin...this was before Footlocker, but his Illinois state meet record has stood up to many Footlocker champions and contenders (Torres, Derrick, Verzbicas, etc.). He also ran 8:40.9 2mi on a 90-degree day -- at the time, the outdoor record and second only to Lindgren's 8:40.0i.

Fun fact, when Matt Centrowitz ran 8:41.55 in 2007, that was the fastest 2mi in an all-high-school race since Virgin's 8:40.9, back in 1973. The runner-up in Virgin's race was Matt Centrowitz Sr.

StormSoup wrote:

Seyta wrote:

Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz.

Are you that ignorant?

Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........

Piss-Poor competition era. This wasn't an era in which high schoolers were so spectacular that they could beat international competition. This was an era in which there was quite literally no money in professional running, and senior-level competition was so pathetic that exceptionally talented high schoolers could beat them.

Also, what is wrong with you people and thinking literally everything was on a dirt track? Lindgren did not run a 13:44 on dirt. This is very similar to how people seem to think every single run by Ryun was on a dirt track, regardless of whether or not that was the case. Lindgren also did not have a cross-country race against two Olympic Champions in high school, unless nearly every source regarding his early distance-running prowess somehow missed it.

Bluntly speaking, Lindgren fails to make the list explicitly because Ryun 100% beats him out in his only claim (historical prowess). Every single record Lindgren had was broken, and as far as cross country was concerned, he objectively cannot compare to Ritzenhein. His mile is not the best. His two-mile is not the best. His 5000m is not the best. His cross-country credentials is not the best. You do not get to be the "greatest", when someone has a better claim than you on every point you can make.

Lindgren is kept off the short list because at least one person has a better claim than him under every justification that could be made for his case. He no longer has the fastest time in any distance event, and lacks the cross-country credentials to be judged as being better than Ritz. All he has is his relatively world-class performances against competition back then, and Ryun beats him in that.

Virgin falls in the same category as Fernandez and Hunter. He absolutely has no claim at all. Ritzenhein objectively has better cross-country accomplishments, Verzbicas has a better 2-mile, and Verzbicas has a better overall combination of cross country and track credentials. Virgin was a fantastic high school runner. There is also no circumstance under which he could ever be called the "greatest", unless your only requirement is "fastest time at Detweiller", and no one not from Illinois would ever use THAT to make the claim.

I hate to correct you, but here goes:

Lindgren did indeed run 13:44 flat on a dirt (clay) track in Compton in June 1964. He led most of the race before being overtaken by 2-mile World Record Holder and Olympic Gold Medalist Bob Schul. Lindgren ran just 9 seconds off the current World Record.

The competition was admittedly not very deep at the time, but up front it was incredible. Ron Clarke? Peter Snell? Jim Beatty? Bruce Kidd? Gaston Roelants? Do these names ring a bell? Legends all of them. Lindgren was at his best at a time when the distance records in track were being smashed and rewritten by the greats.

Before Lindgren and Ryun came on scene, things weren't too impressive in America but they came in right at the zeitgeist. Remember, it was this year - 1964 - that Americans were the best they ever were at the Olympics. Gold medals in the 5k and 10k. Bronze in the 5k too. And Top 5 finishes in the 800 and 1500.

When Lindgren ran 13:44 in high school, the previous high school record was 14:58! Think about that. And that was by ensuing NCAA Champ Dale Story.

Lindgren ran in an Olympic exhibition 6k cross country race at Mt. Sac one month before the Olympics in 1964. In the field were Billy Mills and Bob Schul. Lindgren won the race by a landslide. Ritz would NOT have beaten him in a xc race in HS. No way, no how.

By the way, all of Ryun's records have been broken too. But both Lindgren's and Ryun's records lasted 40 years or so. And I don't count Lindgren's indoor 2-mile record as being broken anyway. Lindgren was 17 when he ran 8:40 flat on a 176 yard wooden track. Cheserek ran less than a second faster but on a 219 yard modern track - at age 19!

Lindgren still holds the high school record officially for 3-miles at 13:17 flat, run on a dirt track in Jamaica the same weekend as running a 4:01 mile at the same meet.

....I could go on.