Historians, who is the greatest female HS distance runner in US history? Could it already be Katelyn Tuohy?

considering her dominating xc times and national records in track events, it really is not a discussion.

Not a 'historian' but I would imagine Mary Cain would be the GOAT in HS track - distance.

In XC, while she is clearly a superior runner to Sarah Baxter, I would still give her another year of records/NXN win and then it can be easy to say she is GOAT for XC.

rojo wrote:

I loved the NY Times article on Katelyn Tuohy and US female HS phenoms. In it, I was struck by this quote:

“She might be the best high school runner ever already,” said Jim Mitchell, a Bronxville High School coach who has guided dozens of elite female distance runners during his 40-year career, including, briefly, the last great phenom, Mary Cain.

Is that true? I assume not but don't really know enough about it.

Historians, can you list the greatest US HS distance runners ever and their credentials while in HS?

Tuohy's accomplishments do not yet exceed Cain, although the 5000m record puts her very high on the list.

For the "greatest", no need for a list. As far as the greatest female US HS distance runners go, you have Cain. No one else deserves a mention unless you consider the historical accomplishments of Decker. The 1:59/4:04/4:24/3:58/15:46 combination overwhelms anything that anyone else can bring to the table.

Male is only slightly more difficult, and would depend on how much weight you give different events. Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz. Ritz for cross country, Webb for the mile, Ryun for his historical placings, and Verzbicas all-around. Rupp and Chapa can be added as a stretch, since they have exceptional performances, but in rarely-contested high school events.

Guys like Fernandez or Hunter, who people love to bring up, don't belong, given that they have objectively poorer accomplishments in their key events compared to one or more of the individuals on that list. For example, Fernandez is worse in the mile compared to Webb, worse in cross-country compared to Ritz, and worse all-around compared to Verzbicas. He therefore has no claim to the title of "greatest".

I think the first, and most obvious, comparison here is to compare Mary Cain’s prs vs Tuohy

Mary Cain- 1:59, 4:04, 8:58, 9:38(i), 15:45

Katelyn Tuohy- 2:09, 4:14, 9:05, 9:51(c), 15:37(i)

A couple of factors to consider here. Katelyn is much, much much better at Cross Country. Over 10+ speed ratings better. Also, every single one of Katelyn’s prs came in a race she won at the highschool level. Cain obviously ran most of her best times with competition. I think it’s hard to compare the two for this reason.

With that said, I don’t think Katelyn could run anywhere near 4:04 or 1:59 with competition, but she could be maybe 4:10 and 2:06. That’s still a long ways off Cain. Right now, I would say Katelyn will probably end being the XC goat while Cain will probably still be the track GOAT( an argument could be made for Efraimson as well, which I will detail below.).

Another contender for the best ever overall would be Alexa Efraimson, who ran 2:01/4:03/9:00. Again, all with competition. She was also, unlike Cain, a Gatorade runner of the year in XC. However, when you compare her best speed rating in XC to Katelyn’s, she’s still almost 7 points off( 165 to 172). Plus, Katelyn ran 172 multiple times. However, she’s closer in credentials in XC where her track times may be enough better to overcome any XC differentials. I would say Efraimson overall is the high school GOAT( including XC/ track).

It should be pointed out that Katelyn has taken a very different approach to track than those two did. She hasn’t been able to optimize her times as much because she’s winning everything. So, that should be acknowledge also.

No one will ever compare to Amber Trotter in XC.

At the age of 14 she was US #1 in the 800 and 4th in the world. She wasn't old enough to run in the 72 Olympics. At the age of 15 she was the first woman at any age to run an indoor mile in 4:40.

That quote completely reeks of a guy who's mad that Cain moved on from him to a higher level of coaches while still in high school. No validity there whatsoever.

coach wrote:

At the age of 14 she was US #1 in the 800 and 4th in the world. She wasn't old enough to run in the 72 Olympics. At the age of 15 she was the first woman at any age to run an indoor mile in 4:40.

Mary Decker

rojo wrote:

I loved the NY Times article on Katelyn Tuohy and US female HS phenoms. In it, I was struck by this quote:

“She might be the best high school runner ever already,” said Jim Mitchell, a Bronxville High School coach who has guided dozens of elite female distance runners during his 40-year career, including, briefly, the last great phenom, Mary Cain.

Is that true? I assume not but don't really know enough about it.

Historians, can you list the greatest US HS distance runners ever and their credentials while in HS?

Not until she wins footlocker

whatareyoulookingfor wrote:

considering her dominating xc times and national records in track events, it really is not a discussion.

exactly. not even a discussion at this point. she avoided lane at XC nationals. if you avoid racing the top girl then you are not the GOAT

How to define "greatest"? Has there ever been a high school girl who beat better competition than 16 year old Debbie Heald? In the 1972 indoor US - USSR meet she beat 5-time world XC champ Doris Brown and Russians Tamira Pangelova who had won the European championship the week before and Ludmila Bragina who had finished second and would win the Olympic 1500 five months later. Debbie's 4:38.5 mile was the fastest ever run indoors and stood as the US high school record for 41 years. No high school girl has ever stepped up like that.

Cain is the best. Range needs to be taken into account. She could dominate 800-5000. Like a female Webb.

Ritz and Webb are the GOATs of the modern era. I'd disqualify LV due to sketchy age issues.

Anybody that says anyone but Ryun and Decker have their head in the sand. Ryun made an Olympic team, beat the WR holder and ran under 4 how many times? He was completely dominant.

Decker had won indoor records at age 16 and beat world class Runner’s at 14.

Old Coach wrote:

How to define "greatest"? Has there ever been a high school girl who beat better competition than 16 year old Debbie Heald? In the 1972 indoor US - USSR meet she beat 5-time world XC champ Doris Brown and Russians Tamira Pangelova who had won the European championship the week before and Ludmila Bragina who had finished second and would win the Olympic 1500 five months later. Debbie's 4:38.5 mile was the fastest ever run indoors and stood as the US high school record for 41 years. No high school girl has ever stepped up like that.

Debbie Heald was terrific, and was horribly overlooked until coverage of Mary Cain's performances brought Heald back into the spotlight a bit, but I'm pretty confident that I'd give the edge to Mary Decker based on her overall record, including world and American records, world and American rankings by Track & Field News, competitive results in high-level races, and finishing times at distances from 800 meters to the mile in 1973-74 (almost all of which were achieved before she turned 16). Comparisons with more recent runners obviously present challenges for a number of reasons, including the dearth of high-school competition for girls and (more generally) longer races for women before 1975, but one would probably need to apply a rather narrow and ahistoric conception of "greatest" to bring some of the other names into the discussion. (I usually avoid these debates about "GOATs" and "greatest," but when this subject came up a few years ago during Mary Cain's high school career, I was frankly shocked by how little some people knew about Mary Decker's early years. She really was one of the sport's biggest international stars when she was just fourteen years old.)

Get your head out of the sand wrote:

Anybody that says anyone but Ryun and Decker have their head in the sand. Ryun made an Olympic team, beat the WR holder and ran under 4 how many times? He was completely dominant.

Decker had won indoor records at age 16 and beat world class Runner’s at 14.

+ 1

Lots of stuff happened in the Dark Ages before Twitter.

Ryun and Decker had impact on the International stage.

ric flair woo wrote:

whatareyoulookingfor wrote:

considering her dominating xc times and national records in track events, it really is not a discussion.

exactly. not even a discussion at this point. she avoided lane at XC nationals. if you avoid racing the top girl then you are not the GOAT

NO. LANE AVOIDED TUOHY. IT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN CLOSE LAST YEAR AS TUOHY WOULD HAVE DROPPED HER BY THE 2ND MILE.

Lane dodged Tuohy wrote:

ric flair woo wrote:

exactly. not even a discussion at this point. she avoided lane at XC nationals. if you avoid racing the top girl then you are not the GOAT

NO. LANE AVOIDED TUOHY. IT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN CLOSE LAST YEAR AS TUOHY WOULD HAVE DROPPED HER BY THE 2ND MILE.

I don't think "Tuohy avoided Lane" nor do I think "Lane avoided Tuohy." They just went to the race that worked best for themselves. However, it is certainly clear that you cannot say that "Tuohy avoided racing the top girl" - as many could say the exact same thing about Lane.

rojo wrote:

I loved the NY Times article on Katelyn Tuohy and US female HS phenoms. In it, I was struck by this quote:

“She might be the best high school runner ever already,” said Jim Mitchell, a Bronxville High School coach who has guided dozens of elite female distance runners during his 40-year career, including, briefly, the last great phenom, Mary Cain.

Is that true? I assume not but don't really know enough about it.

Historians, can you list the greatest US HS distance runners ever and their credentials while in HS?

I think this is just trolling but will bite, obviously Touhy is not yet even close to Cain in both raw times and meet performances/events qualified.

I don't see Tuohy on the JR USA or USA start list this year so its not likely to change this year. Come to think of it we haven't really seen Touhy in any of the Team USA (Bupa) or other USA qualification meets. I wonder why?

She is much closer in XC but as others have mentioned until she runs Balboa park and wins footlocker she can't be directly compared to the greats of the past.

Lane dodged Tuohy wrote:

ric flair woo wrote:

exactly. not even a discussion at this point. she avoided lane at XC nationals. if you avoid racing the top girl then you are not the GOAT

NO. LANE AVOIDED TUOHY. IT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN CLOSE LAST YEAR AS TUOHY WOULD HAVE DROPPED HER BY THE 2ND MILE.

Weird since Lane was a returning champion, it's more logical to say Touhy ducked Lane, either way they both had separate goals.

However, if Touhy wants to be considered with the best and directly compared with past greats she needs to run Footlocker at least once.