Thomas Staines

Thomas Staines's style is not going to change radically ever - that just does not happen.

He has low knee lift, etc. , but compensates with very good cadence and great running economy.

Changing an athlete's fundamental style does not necessary translate to improvement.

Union Jacked said: He will probably break 4 for the mile eventually, making him the fastest 400m to ever do so.

Thomas Staines currently has a 400m pb of 45.98

the fastest 400m runner to have gone sub-4 for the mile is...

Christian Nicolau of France. born 3 Feb 1947, his one and only sub-4 mile was 3:59.1 finishing 4th at Saint-Maur, France on 2 Jun 1965 where Michel Jazy (FRA) ran a European record 3:55.5 followed by Jean Wadoux (FRA) 3:57.2 and Witold Baran (POL) 3:57.4

Nicolau's 400m pb was set in the rarefied air of Mexico City while finishing 3rd in his first round heat of the Olympic Games. he set a French national record of 45.7 seconds.

if we are going to limit ourselves to sea level performances then, yes, Staines would be the next fastest, but, he has to run that highly elusive sub-4 first. at sea level the current record holder is John Boulter of England.

he ran 440yd (402.336 metres) in 48.3 at Aston near Birmingham, England on 2 Jul 1966 which converts to 48.0 for 400m. he went sub-4 three times in his career, the best of which was in a BMC Charity mile at Motspur Park, England on 24 Jul 1968 which he won in 3:58.6 from John Whetton (GBR) 3:59.5 and Ray Roseman (GBR) 4:00.9

cheers.

I was a little quick off the mark there, John Boulter is not the record holder; Steve Ovett ran 47.5 at the Southern Counties Junior championships at Crystal Palace in June 1974.

accurate 400m data on milers is actually pretty hard to come by so if anyone has more information on this topic that would be greatly appreciated.

cheers.

Alberto Juantorena of Cuba went sub-4 in the mile (several times reported in training in Granma publication) and also had around 44/1:44 personal bests.

cotton shirt wrote:

accurate 400m data on milers is actually pretty hard to come by so if anyone has more information on this topic that would be greatly appreciated.

It's not a subject I know much about, but I note that Borzakovsky ran 45.84 and 3:40.28; I suspect that expanding the topic to include 1500m times would give a better indication what a world-class 800m specialist can do.

kjk wrote:

Alberto Juantorena of Cuba went sub-4 in the mile (several times reported in training in Granma publication) and also had around 44/1:44 personal bests.

seems fake but ok

name / birthdate / (400m / 1500m)

Melvin Sheppard (USA) 05 Sep 1883 (48.90 / 4:01.20)

Otto Peltzer (GER) 08 Mar 1900 (49.00 / 3:51.00)

Séra Martin (FRA) 02 Jul 1906 (49.40 / 3:59.60)

Philip Edwards (CAN) 22 Sep 1907 (49.20 / 3:50.40)

Michel Medinger (LUX) 18 Apr 1941 (49.20 / 3:51.80)

Anthony Harris (WAL) 01 Jun 1941 (49.60 / 3:46.10)

Francisco Menocal (NCA) 03 Dec 1945 (49.10 / 4:12.47)

Steve Ovett (ENG) 09 Oct 1955 (47.50 / 3:30.77)

Mark Handelsman (ISR) 09 Jun 1961 (48.17 / 3:45.05)

Dmitriy Bogdanov (RUS) 11 Apr 1979 (46.57 / 3:43.38)

Yuriy Borzakovskiy (RUS) 12 Apr 1981 (45.84 / 3:40.28)

these are the only sub-50 400m marks I have by guys with known 1500m times. I have long told the boys I coach that they need to be sub-50 to run 3:50, and this kind of bears that out but I don't think there is enough data here to draw any larger conclusions.

Mel Sheppard stands out because his 1500m time is so slow. he was Olympic 1500m champion in 1908 and held the world indoor 1 mile record in 1906 but his 1500m pr comes from the Post Office Clerk's Association Games held at New York in May 1912. his 400m pr was set in the 1912 Olympics at Stockholm. after running the mind bogglingly slow 66.6 in his heat, he qualified for the next round where he ran 48.9 and got eliminated because only heat winners went through.

corrections, amendments and additions always welcome.

cheers.

source? wrote:

kjk wrote:

Alberto Juantorena of Cuba went sub-4 in the mile (several times reported in training in Granma publication) and also had around 44/1:44 personal bests.

seems fake but ok

Lol. Juantorena never went below sub 4 in the mile, but I do believe he could have gone sub 4 in the 1500.

Some guy called Seb Coe? 46 & 3.47.

A great compiled list, but shouldn't Sydney Wooderson (the stodgy City of London banker) also be on this list?

Coe has a 46. 400m official race and obviously sub 4 mile.

That French dude, you got proof on that?

There’s a video online of T. Staines running an indoor 600m this year with a more open, rangey stride. Also, he looks leaner and more mature. Guy is going to be deadly. Look out!

Ghost1 wrote:

Thomas Staines's style is not going to change radically ever - that just does not happen.

He has low knee lift, etc. , but compensates with very good cadence and great running economy.

Changing an athlete's fundamental style does not necessary translate to improvement.

I have no issues with Thomas Staines running form. Looks fine to me:

Brits back said: That French dude, you got proof on that?

Biographical Dictionary of French Athletics

notes:

1. RP is the French abbreviation for pr or personal best

2. CF - French Champion (except that Racing CF (Paris) is a track club)

3. CE - European Champion

4. RF - French National Record

NICOLAU Christian 03/02/1947 à La Tronche (38) 174/65SI : 6 J - 21 A 1965-1972

Grenoble UC (Jusqu'en 1969) - Racing CF (Paris) (1970 - 1972) - FC La Roche sur Yon devenu AC La Roche sur Yon (2004 - 2011)

RP : 100 m 10"4 + 10"1 (VF) (1968) / 200 m 20"9 (1968) / 400 m 45"77 + 45"7 (1968) / 400 m haies 55"6 (1966) / Longueur 7 m 11 (1967)

CF : 400 m (1967)

CE : 4 x 400 m 1è (1969) - 6è (1971)

CE i : Relais 2x3x4x5 tours 4è (1970)

RF : 400 m 45"7 + 45"77 (1968) / 4 x 400 m 3'04"6 (1968) - 3'02"3 (1969

cheers.

Indoor fast too wrote:

Staines just dropped a 1:46.2x @ GVU meet to start his 800 season.

I got to call his 800m @ GVSU. Impressive, to understate. Bettered Drew Windle's building record.

I see the French dude’s 10.4 100m, 20.9 800m and 45.77 400m. But I don’t see the claimed sub 4 mile. Also, if it’s correct, why didn’t he run a 1:42 800m?

Gotta call bs on the French guys sub 4 mile. He’s a sprinter through and through. Even has a 7.11m long jump and a 10.4 100m. With that kind of sprint talent, no way he also could break 4 in the mile.

Freedom Fries said: I don’t see the claimed sub 4 mile. Also, if it’s correct, why didn’t he run a 1:42 800m?

well, I got the result from Peter Larsson's All-Time Athletics (link below), where Christian Nicolau is listed right between the American Bob Schul and John Davies of New Zealand.

"4068 3:59.1 Christian Nicolau FRA 03.02.47 4 Saint-Maur 02.06.1965"

but since you've been so nice about it and all I decided to look at a couple of other places where sub-4 miles get listed and ... they all say it was someone else.

the Track & Field News Sub-4 Register (link below) says it was another French guy called Claude Nicolas, who, coincidentally, was also at the Mexico Olympics but running in the 1500m where he crashed and burned in the thin air finishing 11th in his semi-final in a lifetime slowest time of 4:04.4. in 1967 he was 2nd in the French Championship in 3:41.2

the IAAF also list Claude Nicolas (link below) as running a sub-4 mile at Sain-Maur. and Brinkster (link below) also list Claude Nicolas as having run a sub-4 mile at Sain-Maur. so it looks like Peter Larsson got it wrong...

as for the inclusion of Sydney Wooderson that harry wales asked about, I have no 400m or 440yd times for Sydney. the shortest race I have by him is an 880yd race at Motspur Park in Aug 1938 in which he set WR at both 800m (1:48.4) and 880yd (1:49.2), so if you have anything or know of anything else I would be obliged.

therefore, with the additions mentioned by other posters in this thread and the change of French guy at Saint-Maur, the list of sub-50 400m by guys with sub-4 mile now looks like this....

name / birthdate / (400m / mile)

Roger Moens (BEL) 26 Apr 1930 (48.60 / 3:58.90)

Witold Baran (POL) 29 Jul 1939 (50.20 / 3:56.04) (not exactly sub-50, but close enough for government work)

Anthony Harris (WAL) 01 Jun 1941 (49.60 / 3:59.00)

David McMeekin (SCO) 10 Feb 1953 (48.90 / 3:58.05)

Steve Ovett (ENG) 09 Oct 1955 (47.50 / 3:48.40)

Sebastian Coe (ENG) 29 Sep 1956 (46.87 / 3:47.33)

and for the 1500m we get the following...

name / birthdate / (400m / 1500m)

Melvin Sheppard (USA) 05 Sep 1883 (48.90 / 4:01.20)

Hanns Braun (GER) 26 Oct 1886 (48.30 / 4:18.20)

Otto Peltzer (GER) 08 Mar 1900 (49.00 / 3:51.00)

Séra Martin (FRA) 02 Jul 1906 (49.40 / 3:59.60)

Philip Edwards (CAN) 22 Sep 1907 (49.20 / 3:50.40)

Michel Medinger (LUX) 18 Apr 1941 (49.20 / 3:51.80)

Anthony Harris (WAL) 01 Jun 1941 (49.60 / 3:46.10)

Francisco Menocal (NCA) 03 Dec 1945 (49.10 / 4:12.47)

Steve Ovett (ENG) 09 Oct 1955 (47.50 / 3:30.77)

Sebastian Coe (ENG) 29 Sep 1956 (46.87 / 3:29.77)

Mark Handelsman (ISR) 09 Jun 1961 (48.17 / 3:45.05)

Dmitriy Bogdanov (RUS) 11 Apr 1979 (46.57 / 3:43.38)

Yuriy Borzakovskiy (RUS) 12 Apr 1981 (45.84 / 3:40.28)

as ever, corrections additions and amendments always welcome.

cheers.

The clock doesn't care what his form looks like.