Should Sifan Hassan be DQd?

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  • rose colored boy
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:00pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
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    observer_of_things wrote:

    rose colored boy wrote:

    observer_of_things wrote:

    I, for one, like race tactics. What Hassan did was smart and it happens all the time. Tactics are part of the fun: Centro won gold in Rio b/c he was a smart racer. Was he the fastest guy in the field if it was a rabbited race? Maybe not ...


    Centrowitz got to the front, fairly, and then ran really fast on the rail all the way to the finish.

    That's not [i]exactly[/u] equivalent to a rigging athlete in second deliberately veering out to block the athlete in third that's about to overtake them.

    But sure, yeah, it's all [i]tactics[/u]...


    That's right: Centro's tactic was to defend his position, react to any attempt to pass, thus making them run wide. He didn't really run fast in the first few laps, he just surged to hold on to his position when needed but then slowed it back down. This is similar in spirit to Hassan who was also defending her position forcing Muir wide.


    Wrong.

    Eating healthy foods is not similar in spirit to using PEDs. Positioning yourself well in a race is not equivalent to cutting in and tripping people.

    I like Hassan, I have no reason to say she's a bad sport per se. But in the heat of competition, she deliberately veered out and blocked Muir: she cheated.
  • wejo
    cofounder
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:03pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
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    I don't think it should be a DQ. Under normal circumstances I could see the argument, but would generally say it's racing. However this had 2 different circumstances.

    1) Dibaba drifted out into lane 2 to pass a lapped runner. Perhaps Hassan saw that and figured she had to get to 2 anway.
    2) Should the fact Hassan's arms go so side all the time factor in? I think so.
    This photo looks pretty bad:
    http://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screenshot-2018-03-01-at-16.57.39.png

    But not this one:
    http://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screenshot-2018-03-01-at-16.57.09.png
  • observer_of_things
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:03pm CST
    re: Hardloper
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    Hardloper wrote:

    observer_of_things wrote:

    Centro's 2nd lap in Rio was a 70. A 70! He didn't run fast all the way. He surged when needed to protect his position which ended up being a great tactic for that race. The critical points were the home stretch leading to the bell where he held of Soulemain's and Kiprop's attacks.


    And did he veer into lane 2 on the home stretch? No because he isn't an idiot.


    Actually, he DID, you total moron! Because he's smart when it comes to racing.

    I wonder if you've ever raced?
  • observer_of_pictures
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:05pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
    Forum Index
    observer_of_things wrote:

    Hardloper wrote:

    observer_of_things wrote:

    Centro's 2nd lap in Rio was a 70. A 70! He didn't run fast all the way. He surged when needed to protect his position which ended up being a great tactic for that race. The critical points were the home stretch leading to the bell where he held of Soulemain's and Kiprop's attacks.


    And did he veer into lane 2 on the home stretch? No because he isn't an idiot.


    Actually, he DID, you total moron! Because he's smart when it comes to racing.

    I wonder if you've ever raced?


    Watch the race. Or do a google image search. Here's a few:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2658940-olympic-track-and-field-2016-mens-1500m-medal-winners-times-and-results
    http://lagazettedufennec.com/filinfo/jo-makhloufi-remporte-largent-1500m-a-rio/
  • Rockstar Games
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:06pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
    Forum Index
    Are you having fun using the Internet? You might have had too much of it today, time for you to brush your teeth and go bed tough guy.
  • observer_of_pictures
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:07pm CST
    re: Hardloper
    Forum Index
    Hardloper wrote:

    observer_of_things wrote:

    Centro's 2nd lap in Rio was a 70. A 70! He didn't run fast all the way. He surged when needed to protect his position which ended up being a great tactic for that race. The critical points were the home stretch leading to the bell where he held of Soulemain's and Kiprop's attacks.


    And did he veer into lane 2 on the home stretch? No because he isn't an idiot.


    https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4oQouFvAEGS_s8UCZnGY7-HxL08=/110x0:1148x692/920x613/filters:focal(110x0:1148x692):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/50465069/Screen_Shot_2016-08-20_at_8.13.52_PM.0.0.png
  • bebop and rocksteady
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:10pm CST
    re: Candian dutchie
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    Candian dutchie wrote:

    No, if you watched the from the BBC angle a girl was almost lapped and Hassan didn't want to run into her which she would have done had she continued sprinting in lane 1.


    Not a chance, have you absolutely no judgement of speed and distance? Bobocea crossed the finish line nearly two seconds before Hassan and Muir. Dibaba doesn't even come close to running into her.

    Wouldn't want to be in a pack with you.
  • Hardloper
    registered
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:12pm CST
    re: observer_of_pictures
    Forum Index
    Okay, I watched it again. He clearly gained nothing drifting into lane 2 as half the field were in lane 3. Running extra distance to make your opponent run an equal extra distance is not only pointless but stupid because sometimes they pass on the inside (see Cam Levins). And if you blatantly cut off your opponent it is DQ worthy.
  • Time Trial Jack
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:13pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
    Forum Index
    observer_of_things wrote:

    Maybe we should just have them do TTs individually and determine the winner that way?


    I'm totally in favor of this.
  • PrZ
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:17pm CST
    re: wejo
    Forum Index
    wejo wrote:

    I don't think it should be a DQ. Under normal circumstances I could see the argument, but would generally say it's racing. However this had 2 different circumstances.

    1) Dibaba drifted out into lane 2 to pass a lapped runner. Perhaps Hassan saw that and figured she had to get to 2 anway.
    2) Should the fact Hassan's arms go so side all the time factor in? I think so.
    This photo looks pretty bad:
    http://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screenshot-2018-03-01-at-16.57.39.png

    But not this one:
    http://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screenshot-2018-03-01-at-16.57.09.png


    In the slow motion replay there was no contact though (regarding the first pic), it was Muir kind of moving outwards. But if you saw the replay, Muir wasn’t touched and didn’t get knocked out of stride.
  • reformer
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:22pm CST
    re: rojo
    Forum Index
    rojo wrote:

    Al Sal got GG DQd. Is it time one of his athletes gets DQd?

    I personally don't think a DQ is the right penalty. I think there should be a penalty where you put Muir 2nd and Hassan 3rd but I'm sorry - you can't do what Hassan just did.


    This was a blatant oversight of mine on the Albany thread. This is another situation where a DQ is inappropriate, but certainly a violation occurred. I think the right penalty is to award Hassan the same time as Muir, and give Muir the second place (so Hassan is "infinitesimally " behind Muir).

    So here's the updated list of penalties short of a DQ to consider adding to the rulebook:

    1) Time penalties. This would be for a minor infraction like stepping on a line early in a distance race or perhaps some sorts of contact early in races. So if you win by 10 seconds you'll be fine, but if you win the lean at the line, the 2-second penalty for cutting a corner too close will cost you.

    2) Fines. This is what should happen to Albany. This was a stupid thing to do, but it was completely accidental, and it didn't affect the final result. It wasn't really competition related. The program should be sanctioned in an off-the-track sort of way (and it should be significant here; that was really bad). I would say that uniform violations should fall in the same category.

    3) A longer distance to run. Let's have a false start line that's 1m back for the 100, 2m back for the 200, and 3m back for all other events. You false start, you start from that line. Again, and you're out.

    4) An in-race alternative to time-penalties if they could manage it would be a cone in lane 5. You step on the line, and you've gotta run out to the cone on the next lap. Or a stop-and-go sort of penalty. Or one where you have to fade to the back of your pack and then move up again.

    5) If a runner interferes with another runner in a clear but not flagrant way towards the end of a middle distance or distance race, the interfering runner should be put one place behind the slowest runner with whom they interfered, and given the same time. No non-interfered runners have their results affected, unless they move up as a result of the at-fault runner moving back.
  • rojo
    cofounder
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:29pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
    Forum Index
    observer_of_things wrote:

    No, she obviously knew Muir was there so she did it. And that's fine - it's called racing. Have you ever raced? The space was free and she moved in to it. No foul committed. Nowhere does it say she has to run along the rail through the finish.


    Not true. She was obstructed by Hissan and obstruction is against the rules. If Muir had just run into her, then Hassan's foul would have been obvious but that might have cost Muir a medal herself.

    IAAF rule book says:IAAF Rule 163. 2.b. If an athlete is jostled or obstructed during an event so as to impede his progress, then if another athlete is found by the Referee to be responsible for the jostling or obstruction, such athlete (or his team) shall be liable to disqualification from that event.
  • reformer
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:29pm CST
    re: reformer
    Forum Index
    reformer wrote:

    rojo wrote:

    Al Sal got GG DQd. Is it time one of his athletes gets DQd?

    I personally don't think a DQ is the right penalty. I think there should be a penalty where you put Muir 2nd and Hassan 3rd but I'm sorry - you can't do what Hassan just did.


    This was a blatant oversight of mine on the Albany thread. This is another situation where a DQ is inappropriate, but certainly a violation occurred. I think the right penalty is to award Hassan the same time as Muir, and give Muir the second place (so Hassan is "infinitesimally " behind Muir).

    So here's the updated list of penalties short of a DQ to consider adding to the rulebook:

    1) Time penalties. This would be for a minor infraction like stepping on a line early in a distance race or perhaps some sorts of contact early in races. So if you win by 10 seconds you'll be fine, but if you win the lean at the line, the 2-second penalty for cutting a corner too close will cost you.

    2) Fines. This is what should happen to Albany. This was a stupid thing to do, but it was completely accidental, and it didn't affect the final result. It wasn't really competition related. The program should be sanctioned in an off-the-track sort of way (and it should be significant here; that was really bad). I would say that uniform violations should fall in the same category.

    3) A longer distance to run. Let's have a false start line that's 1m back for the 100, 2m back for the 200, and 3m back for all other events. You false start, you start from that line. Again, and you're out.

    4) An in-race alternative to time-penalties if they could manage it would be a cone in lane 5. You step on the line, and you've gotta run out to the cone on the next lap. Or a stop-and-go sort of penalty. Or one where you have to fade to the back of your pack and then move up again.

    5) If a runner interferes with another runner in a clear but not flagrant way towards the end of a middle distance or distance race, the interfering runner should be put one place behind the slowest runner with whom they interfered, and given the same time. No non-interfered runners have their results affected, unless they move up as a result of the at-fault runner moving back.


    So to condense the list a little, these are the non-DQ penalties that I would propose considering. DQs would still be needed for doping, violent offenses, flagrant offenses like purposely tripping a competitor, major offenses that impacted more than one or two runners, or offenses intended to manipulate the system.

    1) Time-penalties and/or an add-on distance for a lane violation, an early minor foul, or a takeoff zone violation
    2) A farther-back starting line for a first false start
    3) Loss of place for a relatively minor foul on a single runner
    4) Fines for violations that do not impact the racing
  • rojo
    cofounder
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:30pm CST
    re: Grammar_fixer
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    Grammar_fixer wrote:

    It wasn't anything like what Molly did in the NYC half marathon.


    What is the difference? They both obscured their opponents for a better medal.[/quote]

    It was very similat to what Huddle did. The only reason it wasn't obvious is because Muir went out of her way not to run into her. Hassan went from lane to the outer third of lane 2 in about 25 meter AND put her arms out.
  • countrydrugcheatsout
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:31pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
    Forum Index
    Yes, I have raced many times. I've never pulled this move on anyone, and nobody has pulled it on me.
  • dgadgasfasdf
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:34pm CST
    re: reformer
    Forum Index
    No penalty. For me it seems very straightforward:

    Hassan was looking at Dibaba in front of her and trying to pass her. Hassan had to get into lane 2 or 3 if she was going to do so, because Dibaba drifted outwards as she finished. Hassan finishing outside of lane 1 had nothing to do with Muir and everything to do with Dibaba.

    Hassan has a funky arm carriage so it looks worse in some pictures than it does in the video.

    This especially makes sense to me in the context of the race where Hassan really looked like she had a shot at closing on Dibaba for the last couple of laps. I mean, I definitely thought she had a chance as a spectator, I'm sure she thought she had a chance as the athlete in question.
  • dgadgasfasdf
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:37pm CST
    re: dgadgasfasdf
    Forum Index
    Hassan wasn't exactly on top of Dibaba at the finish, but it's natural for her perspective to be warped in the heat of the moment. It really did seem to me that she was focused on Dibaba and not Muir.

    Also, I think they're all doping and I was rooting for Muir. Muir wasn't going to win that one either way.
  • bkrunner
    registered
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:43pm CST
    re: rojo
    Forum Index
    That's racing. I suppose Muir could protest, but it doesn't sound like she was upset about it. Hassan didn't really finish any more to the outside than Dibaba did.
  • observer_of_things
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:44pm CST
    re: rojo
    Forum Index
    rojo wrote:

    observer_of_things wrote:

    No, she obviously knew Muir was there so she did it. And that's fine - it's called racing. Have you ever raced? The space was free and she moved in to it. No foul committed. Nowhere does it say she has to run along the rail through the finish.


    Not true. She was obstructed by Hissan and obstruction is against the rules. If Muir had just run into her, then Hassan's foul would have been obvious but that might have cost Muir a medal herself.

    IAAF rule book says:IAAF Rule 163. 2.b. If an athlete is jostled or obstructed during an event so as to impede his progress, then if another athlete is found by the Referee to be responsible for the jostling or obstruction, such athlete (or his team) shall be liable to disqualification from that event.


    I take your point, but I think there is no obstruction. I don't think there was any physical contact and I don't think the move impeded Muir. If there was contact with Hassan's arms on the back swing then that would be Muir's fault. (A side note that is not relevant to the decision: Hassan is known for her crazy arm action. I used to train with a lanky guy who had a similar arm swing - I either passed him with ample room or I got his sharp elbows. He wasn't doing it intentionally, that's just the way he carried his arms when running.). Hassan was drifting wide right, she didn't make a sudden move to impede Muir. If Muir was actually blazing past Hassan and Hassan dove in front of her and made contact then it would be a different story.

    It's an interesting observation that the decision might be different if Muir had "allowed" for contact to happen, but that would be a risky move on her part as you point out. Ultimately, look to Muir herself. She didn't seem aggrieved at all after the race and there was no protest.
  • rose colored boy
    2 years ago 03/01/2018 4:49pm CST
    re: observer_of_things
    Forum Index
    observer_of_things wrote:
    Hassan was drifting wide right, she didn't make a sudden move to impede Muir.


    Absolutely wrong, she makes a sudden move to impede Muir.

    It's gone, it's not the end of the world for anyone, and for Muir (and everyone) to simply accept the good faith judgement of the officials is the healthy and sporting move. But in point of fact, Hassan certainly made a fairly sudden and deliberate movement towards the outside lanes in order that Muir doesn't pass her.