Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 2/18/2018

I actually have been thinking this may be exactly the problem that I'm having and the cause of my weird foot pain on the right side. Starting to think my cushy, super flexible Saucony Breakthru 3s are actually creating a bit of an overpronation issue and I'm feeling it in the outside of my ankle and even more so in the big toe/top of foot. Now that my mileage has increased over previous months and added that recently the Breakthrough has been the only shoe in my rotation and I think I know where I need to go. Pretty obvious wear pattern starting midfoot outside and transitioning to the big toe. Going to give something else a try for a while and see if it doesn't clear this up. I won't go to a stability shoe, have never needed it before, but maybe a little less cushion/stack and maybe something with a post/shank to help a little.

WH- Try a mizuno neutral shoe. the wave plate gives it a little rigidity without the post etc.. Also its typically a much firmer feel.

Was just looking at those when you mentioned the Hitos earlier. What else do you suggest that's a lightweight trainer/tempo duty shoe since RW doesn't have any Hitos?

Good breakdown Gordon. I've kind always assumed that when you land hard on the outside edge of your heel, that would cause you to roll in justby momentum. That's one of the reasons I was surprised that the Sequence Boost was such a good shoe for me - it is so soft that I thought the inward roll would be exacerbated.

They replaced the Hito with the Wave Sonic. It is around 7 ish ounces and has lower heel toe drop. Rear stack is 20mm front is 16mm. I have no experience with this shoe.

The sayonara is my trainer its 9ounces or so. It is discontinued as well. Was replaced by the Wave Shadow. Its 24mm heel 16mm forefoot and 9 ounces or so as well. I have not tried it but I hear good things. It is what my trainer will be I assume when I run out of Sayonaras on Ebay.

A bit of a long shot here: I underpronate significantly on one foot so I'm basically always on the outside of the shoe from landing to toe off. Because of this some shoes apply a lot of pressure to the outside of my ankle and side of my foot (i.e. right under the lateral malleolus). This is especially true for shoes with firm or hard ankle collars. This can cause very localized and severe pain on that ankle. To prevent this pain, I stick to shoes with softer uppers and ideally without any hard plastic in the ankle collar.

Gordon, Thank you so much for the excellent description. As for "pronation" I agree this is what is going on up until toe off. I think pronation is a good thing too. The strange part is at toe off my feet are rolling to the outside "supinating". I researched the old shoes I liked from the 80's. Interestingly they all had systems built in for supination. Back then I remember the wear pattern would be from the mid to outer heal to the big toe side of center in the front.

It appears from the little research I have done Asics has a good deal of shoes mentioned for helping with this. Could be why I liked them before. I guess I'll be testing a pair out by tomorrow night. Hopefully it takes care of my ankle issues too.

Thanks for the help everyone.

@Pappy

I think we were discussing Maffetone HR about a month ago. I stumbled upon an accidental data point today.

I abandoned the Maffetone 132 at the end of March last year, and bumped up to my Hadd HR of 145.

Today, I had a recovery run on the schedule of 6 km. I kept it very comfortable. It ended up as:

HR: 130 at 6:09/km.

Almost exactly one year ago, I had run about 6km as:

HR:129 at 8:54/km!!!

So, while I have done done my base training and easy runs at a little above Maffetone for the past year, my pace at Maffetone has improved a buttload.

Looking back, no wonder I was cursing every step. Still, no regrets. I got to where I wanted to be.

Wow Coach Jeff, that is a huge improvement. That's almost 3 minutes per k!!! No wonder you are about to run another marathon PR.

I must say I did not have your will power. I dropped trying to do Maffetone on the second day. I went with a 142 HR for the first 2 weeks. By the third week I was mixing in slightly higher stuff. Surging up to a 152 HR then going back down to 142, 2 times a week. I just couldn't handle it.

Update on the foot issue. Had an only pair of NB Vazee Pace in the back of my truck so I ran in those this morning. As soon as I put them on and walked a step I could tell immediately my problem is 100% the Breakthrus I've been running in. Easy five miles for the morning and not a niggle besides some residual stuff that I'm sure will clear up. I'm going to run my 7 tonight in the Vazees as well to confirm and most likely use them for my Sunday 20 also.

Ordered some Speed Rival 6s and I guess I'll have to find something to replace the Breakthrus with. I think there's just too much crush on the outside of the shoe and it's causing the issue. It's like when I land my ankle/calf has to fight to keep from rolling out and it's causing all sorts of issues and then overcompensates through toe off . Firmer shoe and the foot just rolls in normally and toes off fine.

Sounds like if the vazee pace did the trick it's time to start looking into the NB 890 v6 they just resurrected.

WH - So glad to hear this...and glad to hear the Vazees work for you. How is the toe box in that shoe? I think you will like the Rivals. I cannot imagine someone not liking them. I did my long run in them this morning (a hilly 16.13 at 6:33 overall) and even with my sore knee they were great. In fact, with the Spencos inside them, they may be my best option right now, even though they are a lightweight shoe.

Toe Box is ok, a little snug for my neuroma which is why I traded them for the Breakthrus but better than the Zoom Streaks I was using. I may go try a pair on that are sized up half a size more and see how that works. Or I guess I could cut the side out of the toe box for some relief.

Speaking of trying on shoes, is there any good way to learn about demo days for shoes without social media? I'd like to find a Nike demo day somewhere so I can try out the Zoom Fly and the 4% if they were to offer that. I'd rather take them on a worthwhile run than just a treadmill for a few minutes. Checking the websites of the local stores and even the Nike store provided nothing. Last resort I'll just call or stop in and inquire but it seems like they'd announce these corporately like a lot of the bike demo days I've been to.

WH - Thanks for the info. I have never liked going up a half size. It just does not seem to work. If a size 8 does not fit me, then I conclude that the shoe is not for me. I commented here on the Zoom Fly not too long ago. It is a fabulous shoe, but somehow ended up irritating (pushing against) my right ankle. It was strange how I did not notice this in my first few runs with the shoe.

When training hard.. anyone else find days off just almost intolerable? Taking a day off today as it has been I think 37 days of running and it’s terrible!

Ended up getting some DynaFlytes and a pair of Cumulus shoes. Drove through my home town on the way home. Had to hop the fence to get onto the HS track. I remember that being easier too. 6:28 for 1600. Now to figure out how to string 12.1 more together.

RRR I find I hurt more now when I take days off. I have been trying to bike more weather I take off or not. I think they help clear the junk out along with a little extra cardio.

37 days in a row. That's great. Why did you take the day off? If it is not tolerable go for an easy run.

Days off are our friend. I try to plana day off every 3-4 weeks and will take unplanned days off every so often.

I haven't had any planned days off yet this year because of the volume associated with Boston training, but I have had 2 unplanned days off (one day it was just cold, dark and windy and I wasn't feeling recovered from Houston, the other was last week because of my ankle).

I think I have a planned day off next week or in 3-4 weeks.

Days off are a lot harder for me mentally than they are physically.

Pappy- cause I know I need it! And racing next Saturday. Plus it shows a little discipline! It takes me more discipline not to run than to run.

Smoove- yeah it was unplanned. Was gonna jog a bit and do strides. Walked outside w gear on and said. Ehhhh dude just slow your roll.

Too Hot - mentally it’s tough .. cause I use runnin as medication more than anything really. So a day without a run is just day without my anti depressant/bi polar medication.