Calling all lurking TRAIL runners out there

USATF has the category "MUT."

"Mountain-Ultra-Trail". So it could be a VK, it could be a 100-miles on the track or it could just be a half marathon trail race (like a cross country race).

To me it is all just the sport of distance running....any surface, any distance (well, lets be serious I'm not doing anything under 10km and I'm not touching the track ever again!).

Lots of road runners train a ton on trails (soft surfaces, hills, etc.). Trails are "natural running." Cross country could be a simple extension of that....of course some courses on golf courses....which run a bit more like roads.

Again, to me it is all just the sport of distance running.

I think where the line gets blurred is when you get into some of that extreme/Euro-style SkyRunning events where there are chains on the rocks, cliffs where you can fall and die, and on many of the climbs you are using your arms. I call that "Sky climbing and powerhiking" (or just "mountaineering").

I'd say on the "runnable" 50km and even 50-mile races (heck even 100-miles on a flat road/track)...smooth dirt trails without tons of climbing...well your performance in those events correlates every well with marathon road running PRs. Its when you get in the mountains and bump up the duration over 10+12 hours that it starts really feeling not specific to a road marathon....that and when you have to start powerhiking up a mile climb that has 1000' of vertical at 18-min mile pace.

Sage you coming back to NH this summer?

The dreaded "hobby jogger" moniker is something to be embraced. No matter how much I improve, I still have more in common with a 4:xx marathoner than I do with a 2:10 marathoner. Being a "hobby jogger" just means you never take yourself so seriously that you feel the need to put someone down for not being as good as you. The difference I find with trail running is that no matter how slow you are, people still treat you with respect.

refusing to hike in a trail race with steep grades doesn't make you stronger, it makes you slower. Sometimes hiking is just as fast or faster than running up some hills.

OP may be a trailrunner but he's an idiot

Trail running hobby jogger wrote:

I’m training for a rim2rim2rim at the Grand Canyon with friends on my 50th bday. How long will it take me? I don’t have a clue, nor do I care. What I do know is that is will be an epic adventure with 30 or 40 friends. Now go get some trail!

I really really really hope you don't bring along 30 or 40 people with you. That's not only against park rules in the canyon, it's disrespectful to other users.

Look up the permitting.

reed wrote:

Trail running hobby jogger wrote:

I’m training for a rim2rim2rim at the Grand Canyon with friends on my 50th bday. How long will it take me? I don’t have a clue, nor do I care. What I do know is that is will be an epic adventure with 30 or 40 friends. Now go get some trail!

I really really really hope you don't bring along 30 or 40 people with you. That's not only against park rules in the canyon, it's disrespectful to other users.

Look up the permitting.

But this is the ultra scene now! It's all a big party! Get with it, man.

steepie wrote:

So if you run mountain marathons, HM’s, or ultras, please come out of the woodwork. Post anything: your PR with a 30K foot alpine climb, your “only” 9:00 pace through mud and snow, or your favorite brand of grizzly mace.

I’m tired of lurking. I’m fast, I’m strong, and while I’d likely get outsprinted on pavement by a road runner, there’s nothing casual about my running.

I have exactly one problem with ultra-runners: a considerable number are complete and total @ssholes. I'm not saying they all are. But nobody ever calls them out on their sh!t. Maybe because they have dubious sob-stories about being former druggies.

I don't think it has anything to do with the surface. All the runners I met at Dip Sea and Pikes Peak were nice. But everyone, road or trail, I've met who runs only 50k+ is at least a little unpleasant to be around.

Specifically, all the ultra runners I know: insult and degrade distances shorter that the longest they run. To them a 14-min 5k is slower than a 14-hour 50 miler. No exaggeration.

They are quick to degrade everyone else while expecting praise for extremely mediocre performances that last over 24 hours.

Many of them cheat. Most of them defend cheaters. I suspect that the majority have cheated on at least one race. They seem to spend thousands on transport, race entry fees, and the latest gear, yet their GPS watches always have glitches when they outperform their training.

They hide behind former drug and alcohol use to justify behaving like morans all the time.

They hide behind former drug and alcohol use to justify behaving like morans all the time.

You’re a moran. Sorry. I meant: your a moran.

Unfortunately there are a$$holes in all walks and areas of life. There are also good, honest people. Endurance sport in general gets some pretty edgy people (myself included). What I don't like is the "us vs them attitude" when it comes to the road/track runners and trail-ultra runners (or vice versa). To me its all just the same sport of distance running....any surface any distance. There shouldn't be an attitude projected on another person based on the distance-event they like to race in. I know what a hard 3km and 5km on the track (heck even an 800m) feels like. I respect that pain and speed (I was pretty slow relative to DI level). I also know what 100-miles in the mountains and heat feels like. I know the relative performances of running a 50-miler with 10,000' of climbing on rolling dirt single track in the low 6-hour range and what it compares to in the road marathon....or a low 2 hour Ascent up Pikes Peak. All have been humbling and pushed me to my limits. If you try 100% all distance running events are painful and test your will power. The pain is a constant. The longer distances aren't harder. There is no logic is saying a marathon is "harder" than a 10km because it is over 4 times as long. It may beat your muscles up more and be less healthy though! Now the cheating really does grind my gears (At all levels in all distance running events). High level dopers in track and road running all the way down to all these cases of ultra- runners cutting loop courses and sneaking around trying to get age group awards and FKTs and podium finishes by doing less than the full distance of the race. There are also probably a few top level runners doping in trail-mountain-ultras because we never get tested.

Don't worry, the road racing and track scene has many of the same elements. Heck, this place is a great example.

While I am enjoying the roads and a bit of the track right now, I have made respect for trail and ultra runners. That stuff ain't easy and requires a completely different mindset. People that are quick to dismiss, condemn, or criticize reveal more about themselves than the people they are criticizing.

derp wrote:

The dreaded "hobby jogger" moniker is something to be embraced..

I am the original KNOBBY JOGGER!! Just check the bottom of my shoes.

steepie wrote:

I never hike; not on training runs, not even through deep snow.

Utter BS.

First, trail/ultra runners are nature and mountain lovers so everyone in the scene loves a good hike.

Second, if you never hiked an uphill probably you're only doing ridicolous courses and you don't qualify as trail runner.

I'm with Sage, we don't need "us vs them" threads. There are good and bad athletes in both road and trails and a different set of skills required to be successful. Road runners should take a try in a trail race and the other way around to better understand each other.

Good athletes deserve the right recognition no matter the surface and even LRC gives credit when is due (see Camille Herron record).

I love road racing, and I love trail racing!

Well, sub 1:20 half and sub 3 full are still comfortably in hobby jogger land.

Hill Running != "Ultra" Running wrote:

The two should never be conflated. One is certainly to be respected:-

I'm comfortably sub 1:20 half and sub 3:00 marathon but easily lag behind some hill runners at the up to ~15 miles hill races I've done. Funny thing is you look at the winners of these events on strava, quite often their pb's for marathon / half are surprisingly poor! These guys are just a different breed - not including "ultra" runners here...

Why do trail runners always get lumped in with ultra runners? I run trails all the time, but keep my runs to 3-5 miles. I don’t like being lumped in with the ultra weirdos who walk half of their “ultraruns “.

The greatest trail runner, Kilian, is a minute slower than a woman. He not only gets chicked, he gets lapped by a chick. Kilian tried a race and was thumped by 17 local Norwegian club runners including children. The hype ain't matching the truth of the results.

Trail running is fun and challenging, but the best trail runners are not elite runners.

he got chicked wrote:

The greatest trail runner, Kilian, is a minute slower than a woman. He not only gets chicked, he gets lapped by a chick. Kilian tried a race and was thumped by 17 local Norwegian club runners including children. The hype ain't matching the truth of the results.

Trail running is fun and challenging, but the best trail runners are not elite runners.

Correction: the best trail runners are not elite track distance runners.

The best trail runners are elite trail runners. The best ultrarunners are elite ultrarunners. The best sprinters are elite sprinters. The best distance runners are elite distance runners. Just because someone isn't a great runner at the distance you like best doesn't mean they're not a great runner.

The best ultrarunner is not the best marathoner? How surprising! Eliud would get whooped in a 100m race against women. Usain would've been demolished by the women's 1500m field. Cole Hocker would not finish a 100-mile race in the Alps. I guess they're all hype because they're not elite in randomly-chosen distances that they don't focus on.

The best tiddlywinks players are elite tiddlywinks players. A great distance runner doesn't get smoked in a distance race by women and children and club hobbyjoggers. Kilian is a great trail hiker/jogger, but he is nowhere near a great distance runner. It wasn't some randomly chosen distance, it was a standard 10K distance that millions of people do every year. A great distance runner should be able to finish without getting chicked no matter what the focus or circumstances. It is embarrassing. According to your logic, a miler shouldn't expect to do well in a 1600m race because it is different than what they specialize in.