Goal of Sub 2:19 Marathon: Advice Appreciated

Why not do a fall marathon? It'll give you a low pressure baseline to assess your training and learn about the distance. Also, it just seems a waste to get yourself in great marathon shape and then not run a marathon.

I don't structure my training or racing around goal times though. The sub-2:19 goal is just fuel for me to be diligent with all of my training and anything else that affects my training.

I don't really see any reason not to try to do the best I can whenever I do my first one. I won't be racing in a way that's "sub-2:19 or bust". By that, I mean that I'm not going to intentionally go out on pace for it and just deal with bonking if it happens. I'm hoping that I can string together some great training and then just let the fitness do the work in roughly a year later by racing by effort. Plenty of people have had great marathon debuts, and I've always liked the prospect of racing an unknown longer distance.

That being said, that's why I plan to structure some big volume training over the summer to hopefully become somewhat familiar to the distance/time while still not racing a marathon. I'd like to do at least a couple long runs where I'd be running for at least 2:20 so I could be familiar with the time spent on my feet at least.

What are your opinions on that? I realize that I came on here asking for advice, so I'm not trying to act like a know-it-all and disregard everyone's opinion, but I do have my own ideas as well.

Ho Hum wrote:

Why not do a fall marathon? It'll give you a low pressure baseline to assess your training and learn about the distance. Also, it just seems a waste to get yourself in great marathon shape and then not run a marathon.

Part of the reason that I'm targeting a December/January marathon next year is because of coaching duties. A fall marathon would be tough right in the heart of the cross country season. I think a big reason why I was able to run so well a week ago at Houston was because my duties were at a minimum during winter break and I was able to sleep as much as I needed during my highest volume/intensity phase. I want to put in lots of big training over the summer for that same reason.

I also think it'd be good to scrap the faster spring and get used to volume instead. The guys with your PRs who went on to qualify for the trials didn't do it on 90- 100 miles a week.

The typical story you hear with those guys is that they slaved away running high volume, nearly year round and changed their fuel tanks.

If you're a strength guy, focus on strength and get used to consistently running over 100 miles a week this spring and summer and then boost it up even more over the winter and next year.

If the volume is hard, slow down!

Running 30:30 or something may be fulfilling but is it more important than running a 2:19 marathon?

And yes, a lot of people have great debuts but most don't.

If you haven’t already, check out Nate Jenkins’ blog. You can find a fairly detailed log of his build up to the 2012(?) Olympic trials. Also lots of posts about his training philosophy and some of the schedules/advice he got from Canova.

Ryan Vail also has some training logs on his old blog... though I think his best marathon might have been his first one and I’m not sure if his blog goes back that far.

I would drop your track times at some fast meets this spring, then revert to another marathon build-up for a big run at a fall marathon.

Here are a few brief considerations.

Work with a coach--preferably someone who you know and trust and are comfortable working with and has sufficient knowledge and experience training other men/women to OTQ standards. Your local running shoe store or running club or college coach should be a good source of information. Most people will have a free initial consultation (or pay for one) to give you an outline of how they would work with you for a typical 6 month training cycle. If you are serious about this, you want to make a good decision about training yourself versus working with a coach.

The three popular books for advanced marathon training are by Pfitzinger, Daniels, and Hansons. If you go it alone, try to follow one of these plans. Or meet with a coach periodically as you follow one of these plans. Even if you work with a coach, you'll be a better athlete by knowing this material.

Don't plan on one peak marathon race 1-2 years out to hit 2:19. That's gambling. You should change your training now to focus on a marathon in ~6 months (Spring 18), ~6 months (Fall 18), ~6 months (Spring 19), ~6 months (Fall 19 = goal). There are too many variables with training and racing for the marathon: weather, sickness, injury, fueling/hydration, race strategy that you will need to learn from each 6 month training cycle to see measurable progress for your goal. The best case scenario is likely that you do a marathon this Spring and another in the Fall and hit your OTQ time. Even if you run 2:3x in your first marathon, that's a good benchmark to have sooner than later.

Altitude training should be fit into the context of specific pre-race planning (train high, race low). If it's easy to fit into your work/life situation great. Otherwise, do as much marathon training without it and then fit it in if you need an extra edge.

Good luck.

"Don't plan on one peak marathon race 1-2 years out to hit 2:19. That's gambling" Suprised, not more input along these lines. Looking at your P.R.s, were any of them set on the first crack? And as you already pointed out, a full is a whole nother animal from the 1/2 on down.

Up your mileage. Don't run your easy miles too fast at first, then 120-mile weeks should be maintainable. Think build-up. Also, take care of your weight. You could easily drop another minute or two by just eating healthier foods. I remember in my collegiate days I dropped two whole minutes off my 10K time in one season because I was eating right and lost a lot of weight. Broke 30 minutes shortly after too.

Good luck!

@bubbadeeboos - Thanks for the resource. Will check those out sometime soon.

@kmaclam - My first 10k ever on the track is no longer my PR, but it is definitely my best 10k ever relative to my fitness at the time. I ran 31:21 during my sophomore year of college and didn't beat that until my 5th year. I also just ran out of my mind on my first and only half ever. Both of those races, I had no real set time goals and just measured out my effort, and they both went really well.

And I'm not banking on only one attempt at the OTQ. As of right now, I've just been thinking I'd give it a go for the first time late 2018 or early 2019 so that I can train for a year and get used to more consistent high volume. If I miss it, no big deal, and I could try again later in 2019. If I only have 2 attempts and miss on both, then that's not that big of a deal either. I'd have 4 years to train and try again assuming I can keep my body in one piece.

@Carl Spackler - Regarding working with a coach, I've already discussed some things with my head college coach here who is very knowledgeable and experienced with training distance runners, but he's never actually trained someone for the marathon. I wouldn't ask him to coach me anyways because he's got way too much on his plate and I'm not going to take up more of his time. We don't have any local running clubs or shoe store owners or anybody in town that is more experienced than him, so I'm pretty much on my own here in town.

@Weight watching - I'm pretty much already a twig. I'm just over 6'2" and usually weigh around 142 lbs during heavy training. Not much wight to drop there.

Check out some training logs from Rod Dehaven.

http://www.allsportcentral.com/rodscorner/trainingLog.cfm

I second the Nate Jenkins recommendation. Mike Cassidy has also written a few things here on LR that may be helpful as you'll get his own perspective being a qualifier and also failing to qualify in several races, and his writing is certainly entertaining.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/01/four-years-mike-cassidy-misses-olympic-trials-qualifier-finds-victory-journey-looks-2020/

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2013/11/time-life/

Ho Hum wrote:

Why not do a fall marathon? It'll give you a low pressure baseline to assess your training and learn about the distance. Also, it just seems a waste to get yourself in great marathon shape and then not run a marathon.

+1. I understand that you have other obligations around the Fall timeframe that would make the result of running a marathon suboptimal. However, I think it's a waste to go through a full marathon training cycle without a marathon. Even if you aren't 100% on race day, you would still learn a lot about race prep, fueling, pacing, and what it feels like at 20 miles and onwards. These lessons would in turn help you run even faster in 2019 than if you trained through. Plus, having a target race gives you something to work towards. You may feel stagnate or lack motivation if you go that long without a race.

Just my 2 cents.

I would suggest looking at Eliud Kipchoge's training leading up to Berlin. Simple, consistent training that gets the job done. I believe it typically consisted of a fast long run a bit slower than marathon pace (alternating 30 and 40k), a fartlek, and track intervals typically around 10k pace.

It seems an ambitious objective, you probably need to push your training to the next level and see if you can tolerate it.

I really like the idea of altitude training but it should be close to competition day to be effective.

Lookup Canova threads and training schedules, hard to find someone with more successfull athletes on this board.

Many people complains that is stuff is geared towards elites but you can easily adapt his suggestions and typical workouts to your situation. I don't believe in marathon plans straight from the books, build your own using the best sources.

Good luck.

Sick of threads being ruined wrote:

Every time there is a decent training thread "COACH J.S å ä ö" turns up and ruins it. There is nobody I would rather see banned from LR than him.

Why do you feel this? Maybe you do not agree with his training but when a training thread is put up people will chime in and many will have different approaches to training. I looked at COACH JS's website and he has listed his PRs, so I am guessing that he is not a fraud. I understand that there are many frauds in the running community such as Kip Litton, Mike Rossi etc and I myself have been stung by a fake coach who was not at all what he claimed to be but from what I see, I don't see anything suggesting that COACH JS is a fraud. Maybe you know more than I do about his story than I do however and I could be missing something.

I like your approach to this goal. Some people get really personal about the marathon because of all the roots and ruts they hit during their marathon training. Everyone is different. You destroyed your half marathon not just showing up to it on 6 to 8 weeks of hopes and dreams but months of specific hard work and staying consistent and making sure you were well ready to crush that half which you did. I believe you will put yourself through the same motions as you prepare for your first marathon. I believe you will be more than ready to destroy your first marathon too. Some people get bitter because they set their goals out of reach or perhaps fell to the injury cycle. While the marathon is twice the distance, you're still the same person who approaches races logically and sensibly, you already know you have to put in a ton of work and you know there's no guarantees.

Don't fall into the trap of just senseless high mileage. Sub 2:19 is still 5:15ish pace so you gotta have an eye on quality. IMO you will run better off 100 miles at a good clip than slogging and suffering through 20 miles every day. This also saves time;)

I meant 66 seconds for the 16X400m session. That is more consistent with a 2:19 marathon. 64 seconds would be for some one who is more speed based(low 3:50's 1500m). Since this runner is more endurance based 64 would be crazy I guess. As for 250m, of course he can sprint 250m, if he can run 26.2 miles at around 5:20 pace(over 11mph), he can run literally nearly a 169th the distance at 4:00 mm effort. For an endurance based runner who's weakness is speed, training for a marathon, I would call this pace there sprint effort literally. Of course it is hill work so that is why I use effort and not pace. Nobody will do this pace 16 times going uphill obviously, but the effort of the sprints would be equivalent to running 15mph on a track I mean. Don't know where the statement about not been able to run a single rep of 250m come's from.

The reason I recommend these kind of sessions is because when you go back to your marathon paced work, the pace(5:20) will feel relatively easy, if that makes sense. That is my advise for now. I'm not some Kenyan couch trying to sell EPO, just like to share my 2 cents. Good luck with the marathon, hope this is usefull