It took me 5 years to finally crack 2:30 in the marathon and achieve my lifetime running goal. This is what worked for me.

Props to you.

Back in the 1980s, I ran a 2:44 at the NYCM on an avg of 45mpw for about 10 weeks. I always felt I could go faster w more mileage, but life got in the way.

I'm happy you did it. As I read, I wondered if your wife was a runner, because you really needed her support to train as you did.

I hope you really thanked her, as her support allowed you to achieve your goal. Perhaps you can shoot for a sub 15:30 5k?

Good luck with your upcoming child. Congrats again on a super achievement.

Very nice thread (and polite so far...).

Congrats for your achievement, you seem to have a natural talent and your hard work payed off.

Reading all your story makes me also wonder if you think that all your efforts were worth it and you're ready to make even more in the future (a kid changes radically your life, i can testify).

5 years of heavy mileage, little to none social life, placing runs maniacally in the extra free time, just a beer before bed for consolation... maybe it's time to live and run more easily? I ask the same to myself, sometimes we make training plans so hard and rigid that it becomes a second job...

It may be, but to a point the vast majority of people I've seen improve consistently and significantly at the marathon over time have had those things in common. Other approaches do work for certain runners, but rarely do you see that kind of improvement without some or most of those aspects there.

That's also why I went out on a limb and made those assumptions. If you're not willing to put your beliefs out there and see if they consistently hold up, then you never challenge them and become the type of person that forms an idea and holds onto forever thinking they surely know what's right regardless of the evidence and experience out there.

Dorando wrote:

Well done! Your post can be summarised in 3words....run more miles. Who would've thought? For the marathon, how you run those miles, and how fast, doesn't really matter, but don't tell anyone.....

Let’s not forget that the workouts he incorporated during training for his last couple marathons really seemed to help as well.

Weird wrote:

Jeremy R wrote:

Can you talk about your running background before 2012?

This.

Honestly 2:44 on 40mpw (with 1:18 HM split) is more impressive than 2:30 with lots of mileage and workouts.

+1. 2:44 off of basically no training indicates serious talent, or at the very least you had a more than solid aerobic base and decent natural speed to begin with....

MonkeyOffBack wrote:

Progression, Splits, MPW (avg for 8 weeks prior)

2012 - 2:44 (1:18/1:26) - 40mpw

2013 - 2:39 (1:20/1:19) - 60-65

2015 - 2:37 (1:17/1:20) - 65-70

2017 - 2:33 (1:15/1:18) - 75-80

2017 - 2:29 (1:14/1:15) - 85-90

...

2015: Increased mileage and consistency. Ran for a total of 15 straight months without a day off. Occasional fartlek and long run.

...

- In 2016, I ramped up my mileage (70 -> 90) and intensity too quickly within a span of 4 weeks. This lead to a bout of piriformis syndrome that kept me sidelined for 5 months (and is still an on-going problem).

Great perseverance and consistent improvement, especially if some of the races didn't go so well!

But... when you ran for 15 months without a day off you improved by 2'. When you were laid low for 5 months with injury during the subsequent cycle you improved by 2x4'.

Any evidence for dropping in more rest days or even weeks?

I appreciate the bit about shortening your taper, keeping mileage higher closer to the race.

Still catching up on replies!

Jeremy R / Weird / Others – RE: Running background before 2012.

High school PR’s of 1:58, 4:29, 10:30

Ran for a club XC team in college, didn’t take running very seriously. 5k’s typically run in the 16:40 range and the fastest 8k was about 27:50.

1 year out from college, I put in a few months of “good training” and ran 9:59 2-mile at an open meet at the Armory and, weeks later, 26:59 for 5-miles.

The next few years consisted of basically running ~45 miles per week at 7 min/mile (almost no workouts) and running a 5k race every few months. I ran 16:01 in this period, but the vast majority of results were in the 16:40-16:20 range.

One thing that I perhaps failed to recognize here is that while I didn’t have any marathon-specific prep in 2012 when I ran 2:44, I did have ~8 years of pretty regular running (and occasional racing) under my belt. I would run 5-6 times per week, every week from age 18 to 26. I wouldn’t record mileage or have any sort of training plan. Getting a 7-8 mile run in was just one of the things to check off the list for the day.

I really wish that I kept any sort of log in 2012, to provide specifics on what I was running then. At that time, though, a 10-mile run was a pretty big deal to me and not something I would do more than once a month. I realize now how a 2:44 off such crappy training is out of the ordinary. I didn’t really follow marathon running too much at that point, so didn’t think much of it.

But, yeah, a 2:44 off 40-45mpw would probably indicate something much bigger (bigger than just sub-2:30) to come with proper training.

Related, Cottonshirt, the 1:12 half 6 weeks out from my goal race was run under pouring rain, high humidity, and high winds. In March 2017, I ran 1:09:00 so an eventual sub-2:30 should have been a sure thing. Which goes back to my point on my underachieving at this distance.

Thanks for posting. This is interesting training info. It fits some good training advice I have been given and learned over the years.

1. Consistency and mileage are VERY important in the marathon.

2. Spend a lot of time getting comfortable running marathon pace. You don't need complicated workouts or lots of short repeats.

3. Gradual building of mileage works and is safe for the body.

Congrats on a quality marathon PR.

You had a sub-2:30 in you from the beginning it was just a matter of time and good old hard work.

Thanks for the insightful post. How about setting a 5k goal (eg. break 15), or even a shorter goal, like a 1 mile PR?

You received positive responses because your post was sincere, without hate or stupidity.

I'm jealous.

` wrote:

Since everyone has been really nice, I'll try to bash as much as I can: in 5 years, you took 15 minutes off your marathon time.

I get that once you get under 2:40, every minute is hard to come by, but your progression is to be expected for anyone who goes from barely running to doing the basic things it takes to be a serious runner. 80mpw including a long run, a track workout, and a tempo or fartlek each week isn't exactly a unique training plan. It's what everyone knows they need to be doing. This thread will be useful to people who are close to 2:30, as they can see what kind of workout times mean they have a shot at breaking it, but I don't think anyone will learn from it, and I don't think anyone should be inspired by it.

You hit the nail on the head. The thing with me is that it took me this long to understand those "basic things it takes to be a serious runner." Maybe a better thread title would be, "It took me 2 years..." since part of that journey was learning to a) figure out what worked for me, b) commit, c) actually make it happen on raceday.

Once I learned I needed to run more, I upper my mileage. Didn't get there.

Once I learned I needed to run A LOT more, I did it too fast and got injured.

Once I learned I needed to run A LOT more, gradually, while taking care of my body, and incorporating regular, progressive workouts... I couldn't quite hit it.

Then it all finally came together.

You're absolutely right that none of this is unique, which I acknowledged on my 2nd post. But I can tell you that when surfing these threads, it helped to just have some confirmation that I was heading in the right direction. "Oh that guy would do a workout of 20 miles at an average of 6:00 min/mile. I can do that! Oh but he also did a lot more marathon paced stuff than what I have planned. Maybe I'll tweak some things. Cool, keep plugging ahead."

I don't expect anyone to learn anything from this, truthfully, but if there are other runners out there with this goal (or similar), it might help to confirm they are on the right path. And maybe try out a workout or two.

Also, thanks a lot for the kind words. That is some genuine stuff. I'm pretty terrified of becoming a father, but I guess that's normal. My wife has been really supportive my running and I'll definitely want her goal of sub-3 to be our main running goal over the next few years.

Current PRs:

5k - 15:24 (2016)

5M - 25:28 (2016)

10k - 31:37 (2017)

10M - 53:05 (2017)

13.1 - 1:09:00 (2017)

26.2 - 2:29:00 (2017)

reed wrote:

some of your workouts look more like what I'd expect to see from a 2:27-2:28 guy including the 10mi at 5:30ish pace and the 20 milers at 5:53-6:00 pace. those would be very taxing runs for a 2:29 guy

Echo'ing this. 20 miles at that pace is astonishing for a 2:29 guy. That's 15 seconds off of marathon goal pace. Would love to know how you felt during/after those 20 milers and if you feel like you under performed on race day.

What to do next? With your first child on the way, I can offer my experience.

It's nearly impossible to maintain a consistent schedule and totally immoral to abandon your wife with the kid frequently. The first few months, it's not safe to have a newborn in a jog stroller. But as soon as he/she is old enough, you will be a star when you start taking the kid out for a couple hours, several times a week. It's not too terrible running with a good stroller, especially if you are doing hills. My daughter would fall asleep and naps are gold.

As my daughter got older and more aware, but still too small to ride a bike or anything, she and I had great times going places in the Bob and on my bike. As she talked more and more, there were hours of conservations that were our private time together. Soon, she was egging me on, telling me to go faster, getting mad when people passed me, laughing hysterically when I pretended I wasn't steering, etc...

It's a far cry from the kind of training you've done, but letting your wife sleep and putting in quality time with your kid will likely be the only things that matter for a few years. Oh, and beer. Bob strollers have cup holders.

Interesting to me that you say you did "1-2 long runs of 15-20 miles" in 2013, but said " Occasional fartlek and long run" in 2015 and said "incorporated weekly track workouts and long runs every week" in 2017.

Do you mean that you did ...

1 or 2 15-20 milers every wk in 2013?

an occasional long run in 2015?

and one long run every wk in 2017?

This seems counter-intuitive to 1) the increase in mileage and 2) how you would know and learn how to train over time?

Good stuff overall and I think it helps people. Great writing though, organized, succinct, well-paragraphed!!

reed wrote:

some of your workouts look more like what I'd expect to see from a 2:27-2:28 guy including the 10mi at 5:30ish pace and the 20 milers at 5:53-6:00 pace. those would be very taxing runs for a 2:29 guy

What about a 31:37 guy? Because he ran that too. What if he ran 2:29:01? Do you believe there is an objective difference (read: pacing) between the two? The mile pace difference between 2:28:00 and 2:29:01 is 2.3 secs per mile!

theJeff wrote:

MonkeyOffBack wrote:

I don’t know where to go from here.

consider different distances (a really strong half, or even a trail ultra) or even a multisport event.

A quick note about trails and ultras; while currently they are a bit of a synonymous fad domestically, trails and ultras are not the same. One can a number of sub ultra race distances at any number of venues including some iconic races (Dipsea, Seven Sisters, Escarpent Trail, etc), and ultras on the track and or roads have a fairly deep history.

The Overexplainer wrote:

reed wrote:

some of your workouts look more like what I'd expect to see from a 2:27-2:28 guy including the 10mi at 5:30ish pace and the 20 milers at 5:53-6:00 pace. those would be very taxing runs for a 2:29 guy

What about a 31:37 guy? Because he ran that too. What if he ran 2:29:01? Do you believe there is an objective difference (read: pacing) between the two? The mile pace difference between 2:28:00 and 2:29:01 is 2.3 secs per mile!

31:37 seems pretty in-line with 2:29ish

and since I posted that we found out OP actually ran 2:28:59, plus the 31:37, plus a 69min half months before. the 69min half points to a 2:27 or so IMHO.

seems like the more we learn about OP, the more talented he becomes and the less impressed we all are that he broke 2:30.