Road Racing and Training week ending 12/17

Monday - 60 minutes easy

Tuesday - 55 minutes total, 20 minute moderate in

Wednesday - full body weight lifting

Thursday - 55 minutes easy. 15 minutes elliptical

Friday - 60 minutes easy. 20 minute bike

Saturday - full body weight

Sunday - 30 minute bike

Jeremy,

This best thing for your situation is is some heavy anaerobic/aerobic combination work, but not the type that is starting the workout some 4 x 200, and then so 1000s or miles @ 5k pace.

Instead, what you need to do is 800s and then 1000s like this - Run the first 200 stupid fast to really put yourself in the box. For the next 600 or 800 meters, do what you can to grind and hold on the best you are able to. This is trainable.

Be well.

Oh I know my legs are tired. That's kinda the point now and I knew that coming in... Was only hoping to PR given the amount of work I've been doing. Goal race is late January. I tried taking off and going much easier running two weeks ago during "taper" week and ran an 18:30.

Interesting, I may try to do add something similar into my workout.

I actually have this workout in the routine that's supposed to try to simulate how to use lactate as fuel during a race

4 x (800m @3K + 100 j,g + (3 x 150m @ 10K w/ 50m jg) + 100m jg)

Did it once and was absolutely tough

What kind of rest were you thinking for those repeat Ks

DB - Solid week, Thursday was still right around 25% of your week which is pretty standard I believe.

Jeremy - Congrats on the PR. You got a lot of work in leading up to that 5k so I'd think you have a lot more room to improve.

*Gets soapbox out*

For what it's worth, I think Eric Lynch is trolling. I may not be an expert, but I'm pretty sure that workout is a terrible approach. Putting yourself "in a box" early in a rep and trying to hang on isn't going to do anything beneficial. In fact, it will do the exact opposite. Your form will break down as you try to hold on which could lead to injury. Also, slowing down that drastically over the course of each rep isn't going to lead to better race results. Being able to go out at a fast pace and maintain isn't the result of a few magic workouts where you practice going out too fast. It's the result of increased fitness through consistent mileage and workouts over time.

*Puts soapbox away*

Pappy - It's the little things that allow us to put the miles we want to in. Good work on the less fun stuff last week, it'll pay off down the road.

Smoove - Nice consistent volume again. Are you cutting down to one workout a week until Houston, or was this week an anomaly?

Bdubs - Great week. Tempo is really solid and that's a lot of volume at a pretty quick pace Saturday.

Still Improving - Nice 800's workout. What was the rest there?

AJ - Nice week overall with some really good workouts in there. The consistency in your TT combined with the mile repeats workout makes me think you could be in the 16:15-20 range if you got on a fast course with some competition.

RRR - Sorry about the Steelers. Some day teams will learn not to pass against the Pats on the goalline. Sunday was not that day. Running wise, still a solid week. 62 ain't shabby.

Coach Jeff - Fantastic race. You gauged what you were capable of perfectly and then went out and executed on that. I don't think you can overstate how hard it is to do both well.

OR - Still a pretty consistent week. 6 days and a good long run is pretty good.

NaCR - Treadmill = Dreadmill. Great race, always good to open up your season that close to PR shape. Where did you race? BU Mini meet?

Pewow - I like the Fartlek's. Good mix of speed and strength in there.

Working - Tempo wave session looks like fun. Solid track workout too!

Emanuel - Good looking week. That race looked really solid. Good aggressive move and you looked like you had plenty left at the end.

Jewbacca - Great week, especially with being sick at the end of the week. Sounds like a pretty solid plan for Houston, wouldn't be surprised if you're feeling pretty good at 7 or 8 with a nice taper and assuming you're healthy that day.

M - 10 miles, 6:47 avg. Nice and easy.

T - 10 dreadmill miles, 6:24 avg.

W - 2.5 up, 40 minutes of 3,2,1, on, 1 off, 2.3 down. 5:33 avg. for the Fartlek

T - 11 miles, 6:42 avg. Nice and easy.

F - 9 snowy miles, 6:51 avg.

S - 5x (1 on, 1 off), 8x (3 on, 1 off), 1x (90,75,60,45,30, on, 90 off). 9.5 miles, Avg. 5:39 pace + 3 miles of wu and cd.

S - 16 miles, 6:35 avg. Relaxed long run after being aggressive the last 2 weeks.

Total: 80.5 miles. Biggest week in over a year.

Smoove wrote:

Right now, I think I am going to go out at 5:20 as well, but with the hope of not blowing up too much rather than potentially picking it up.

Feel free to shoot me an email if you want to hook up in the corrals and do some of that work together:

bill@brooklynbornrunning.com

That would be great. Email sent.

Wasn't trolling.

From Nate Jenkins blog, who knows more about training than most, talking about 10k aerobic/anerobic workouts.

"Muscular and aerobic work options stay about the same but avoid the short aerobic options instead use some of the combo work above and the circuits change slightly instead of starting with an aerobic interval you should start with an all out what I call high school style interval, super anaerobic. Which is to say you go out too hard and get yourself in as much anaerobic pain as you can as quickly as you can. So you do an interval of 800m to 1k and just hammer out sub 30 for the first 200 and go as hard as you can. Sure you will run slower then you could have if you ran smart and you’ll be more tired too but that’s the point. You want to start the exercises with your body in an absolute state of crises. Just like the last 400m of a hard race. These Kenyans and Ethiopians you see dropping 50 to 53 second last laps on the track in Europe aren’t 45 second 400m men they are just able to run within a fraction of there top speed for 400m when their body is very near collapse. You want to be able to do the same."

Good advice. Nate Jenkins is definitely someone you want to listen to. But do this SPARINGLY. I know we're mostly Daniels fixated on this thread and can't see past the handy dandy formula...but do yourself a favor and read the training wisdom of John Kellogg as well.

Bout got plowed by a guy rolling through a stop sign last night. (On my bike) Caught a pedal on the back of the Achilles. Seems to be okay but its bruised and I could feel it on the run tonight. If it becomes a problem I might find the guy and beat him with the d*** pedal. People who dont look for runners-pedestrians-bikers absolutely infuriate me.

on the run this morning*

I understand your argument a little more now. There is certainly something to be said for acclimating your body to race type efforts, and very often that does mean going out faster than your goal pace. However, I think there is a middle ground. The "super anaerobic" approach being described still seems to me like it would do more harm than good. You want to be out fast enough to be a little uncomfortable, but not to the point where you're basically running a 200 PR. For example, when I do tune-up 800's for a race I'll often throw a random 29-31 second 200 in, and run at 2:20 pace the rest of the time. For me, that isn't ridiculously fast -roughly mile pace - but it's fast enough to get used to changing gears in a race. I think that accomplishes the same goal in a more controlled fashion where you don't run the risk of essentially turning it into a 200's workout where you're running hard 200's with a moderate 600-800 in between each one. The idea of opening up "as hard as you can" just seems a little reckless, I guess.

Where would you suggest one start their reading about JK? Could you summarize a little bit of what his philosophy is about? I, and I think most here, are all about learning more and seeing what others are doing. We definitely have some Daniels devotees around but I don't think that means everyone is in the Daniels camp. Hoping Slowtwitch picks back up in here as he was more a Canova guy and following his training has always been fun.

Some may have seen that I will sometimes advocate this workout during the end of a vo2max phase or early in a taper phase for the 5k: 3-4 sets of: 200 at mile pace, 200m slow jog, 800m at5k pace, 200 slow jog, 200 at mile pace. Full recovery between sets.

This is actually a lot tougher than it might seem on paper because, even with the 200 jog recovery, the 200s do exactly what is being talked about here - they take just enough out of you to make the 800 (which would normally be pretty easy to do at 5k pace) feel more challenging. The workout is intended to simulate what you do on race day - get out somewhat hard to establish position, settle into pace, then try to finish strong.

The 200m jog recoveries give you just enough recovery to not cause you to break down during this workout.

Eric- thanks, I'll take a look. I have Nate Jenkins's blog bookmarked, but I haven't really looked into it much.

too hot- I am open to all ideas- and right now I'm trying to execute a Magness type training plan. I'm in my "specific" phase so I'm doing a lot of support paces (10K/3K) and specific paces (5K) on a bottom up approach

statfanatic- I appreciate the feedback

just trying to get the most of my time lol

I like that workout Smoove. Gonna definitely try it out.

Jeremy - A couple of unsolicited thoughts on your training.

I agree with Smoove that tempo work will help with the grind it out mentality you need in the middle of a 5k. I find vdot paces from PRs too aggressive though unless you are feeling fantastic.

I found this workout to be very interesting, starting with a 3 lap cut up where every lap gets slower, going from maybe 2k=>10k pace.

http://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2017/12/10

I also think this 20x300 @5k pace is a good way to get in aerobic work at race speeds.

http://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2017/12/12

Combining these ideas of something sharp to fatigue your legs then working through it at aerobically at race pace I came up with this

N x (200 @ mile effort, 100 jog, 300-100-300 @ 5k-cruise-5k effort)

Thanks pewow, I've been browsing that site as well ever since I heard about it from Marcus and Magness podcast. And since I'm posting on a public forum, I am soliciting thoughts LOL

pewow wrote:

Jeremy - A couple of unsolicited thoughts on your training.

I agree with Smoove that tempo work will help with the grind it out mentality you need in the middle of a 5k. I find vdot paces from PRs too aggressive though unless you are feeling fantastic.

I found this workout to be very interesting, starting with a 3 lap cut up where every lap gets slower, going from maybe 2k=>10k pace.

http://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2017/12/10

I also think this 20x300 @5k pace is a good way to get in aerobic work at race speeds.

http://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2017/12/12

Combining these ideas of something sharp to fatigue your legs then working through it at aerobically at race pace I came up with this

N x (200 @ mile effort, 100 jog, 300-100-300 @ 5k-cruise-5k effort)

Working Harder wrote:

Where would you suggest one start their reading about JK? Could you summarize a little bit of what his philosophy is about? I, and I think most here, are all about learning more and seeing what others are doing. We definitely have some Daniels devotees around but I don't think that means everyone is in the Daniels camp. Hoping Slowtwitch picks back up in here as he was more a Canova guy and following his training has always been fun.

You could start with this old thread and two others listed in the "Good threads ..." link at the top of the message board. Takes me back to 2003 when I was racing a lot in my 40s, and had recently discovered Letsrun. Good stuff to ponder.