Strength training for runners article-feedback wanted!

Where did you get the images used in the article? If they are not your own then you should give credit to the artists, photographers etc and get their permission to use the images. Otherwise you are stealing.

For instance, it looks like you are using the thigh abductor machine image from

https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/thigh-abductor

.

If you are stealing images, it makes me wonder if the text is your original work.

The photos are all from stock image sites, they were listed under the free section so unless they are mislabeled I think it's OK.

The article was 100% written by me, as are all of them.

once a runner now a lifter wrote:

get springy with it wrote:

Would you suggest jump squats or box jumps?

Jump squats aren't bad, runners are generally light enough that the landing isn't too strenuous.

Box jumps are ok if you can keep your ego out of it...doing box jumps at 80-90% of your best height are fine, but the only good that can come of constantly trying to set new box jump records is the pleasant belly laugh we will get from watching the fail clips on youtube of it.

Right, and for the most part a 24-30in box is all anyone needs. It gets ridiculous and the box jump becomes a test of hip mobility instead of power and explosiveness.

Single leg jumps onto and off a 12in box.......that's no joke.

Alan

Spot on, I once saw a guy knee himself in the face while doing box jumps.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Power exercises done for 10 reps is no longer very powerful......don't let Crossfit confuse you.

Alan

Note the words "up to" 10 reps. It could be anything between 5-10 or so. It depends from the load and the exercise. And I don't know anything about Crossfit. Maybe the word "Power" means different to us, it's common that similar terminology doesn't mean similar things to all of us.

U.N.O. wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Power exercises done for 10 reps is no longer very powerful......don't let Crossfit confuse you.

Alan

Note the words "up to" 10 reps. It could be anything between 5-10 or so. It depends from the load and the exercise. And I don't know anything about Crossfit. Maybe the word "Power" means different to us, it's common that similar terminology doesn't mean similar things to all of us.

Power is power. 10 reps is simply too many reps as with each rep you are reducing the velocity at which you are able to move the weight. Your power output by the 10th rep is going to be minimal.

Here, reference material...

Alan

To be fair, I saw a video of a ~650lb bench presser whose "speed work" was 185lb bar weight with bands...he did 10 reps as fast as possible, took about 6 seconds...crazy explosive. Perhaps his last 2-3 reps were a bit slower than the first few but not by much. I'd say power is ideally 3-5 reps but up to 10 isn't a terrible descriptor especially for upper body. To say power output is "minimal" by the 10th rep is a bit dramatic.

I think a good coach can help a lot to teach a runner to be *explosive*... especially using Olympic lifting can help because you can't really "control" the movement or do it slowly like a squat, it has to have some pop or you miss the lift.

Cool story. Doesn't change the fact that 10 reps is not a correct rep scheme for power training or explosiveness. And if we're talking about bands and chains look into Westside. Like 10 sets of 2 at 75-85% max.

There is a difference between fast and explosive. I could take 135lbs and violently jerk it up and down above my chest for 3 reps and it looks fast but it's not every explosive. On the other hand I could take that same 135lb and perform each rep as its own explosive event, taking the bar down under control and then explosively lift it above my chest nearly throwing it, catching/resetting and go again.

See the difference?

Alan

Fair enough. I think a lot of them use 40-50% of their max for power work but I agree with the general idea :)

once a runner now a lifter wrote:

Fair enough. I think a lot of them use 40-50% of their max for power work but I agree with the general idea :)

True, and for most 40-50% is fine. I use that range. I think the more elite lifters, the powerlifters competing, those are the guys who benefit more from the heavier power work because they can still bring that velocity and explosiveness even at a high %RM because of their development.

Alan

"Power is power. 10 reps is simply too many reps as with each rep you are reducing the velocity at which you are able to move the weight. Your power output by the 10th rep is going to be minimal."

Yes, if you use too heavy loads. But even with 40% of 1RM I can squat 10reps as fast as possible before I've exhausted the anaerobic alactic system. And I still want to repeat the words "up to 10 reps". If the exercise/movement you're doing is so demanding that your rhythm and explosiveness is declining; stop the set. Rest an repeat.

I red your article, but I'll still stick with the thinking that "power" work is different in cyclic sports vs. acyclic. For a runner, the most spesific way to do this in a gym is to use the lighter loads and do the sets as fast as possible (sets of fast cyclic movements).

once a runner now a lifter wrote:

To be fair, I saw a video of a ~650lb bench presser whose "speed work" was 185lb bar weight with bands...he did 10 reps as fast as possible, took about 6 seconds...crazy explosive. Perhaps his last 2-3 reps were a bit slower than the first few but not by much. I'd say power is ideally 3-5 reps but up to 10 isn't a terrible descriptor especially for upper body. To say power output is "minimal" by the 10th rep is a bit dramatic.

I think a good coach can help a lot to teach a runner to be *explosive*... especially using Olympic lifting can help because you can't really "control" the movement or do it slowly like a squat, it has to have some pop or you miss the lift.

Well said.

The problem with herky jerky fast eccentrics is the risk for injury in a relatively novice lifter. Most people, much less the strength deficient runners, do not have the technique or control or muscular strength and overall development to use fast eccentrics like you are talking about without a major injury risk. Add to that fast eccentric an equally fast concentric and I hope you have a good surgeon.

Why are you lifting? Getting stronger. Improving muscular power. Become more explosive. Reduce injury risk. None of those things are happening in the most effective way with the herky jerk spastic way you are talking about lifting. Been there, done that....it's a good burn and a good way to burn you out...but not the most effective way of spending your time in the weight room.

Alan

Aaaaaaaaaand......slower negatives, not slow really just normal.....increase time under tension....increase strength more effectively.

Alan

"The problem with herky jerky fast eccentrics is the risk for injury in a relatively novice lifter. Most people, much less the strength deficient runners, do not have the technique or control or muscular strength and overall development to use fast eccentrics like you are talking about without a major injury risk. Add to that fast eccentric an equally fast concentric and I hope you have a good surgeon.

Why are you lifting? Getting stronger. Improving muscular power. Become more explosive. Reduce injury risk. None of those things are happening in the most effective way with the herky jerk spastic way you are talking about lifting. Been there, done that....it's a good burn and a good way to burn you out...but not the most effective way of spending your time in the weight room."

I don't have been talking about, or suggested "herky jerky spastic" weight work to anyone.

I also didn't suggested the Power work for a relatively novice lifter, without a good background of progressive strength training. I believe that most people, even runners, if they've gone through my example of progression, will be strong enough for the power work, with naturally improved technique thanks to plenty of lifting behind you. I never had any assistance but I figured things out, and tried always focus on the technique. It gets easier during time and you don't have to spend so much of mental energy on your technique. But, if you aren't sure enough about your technique and don't have any assistance on it (although the uTube is full of advices), then don't do it. As I said, you've already reaped the most benefits from the gym work if you go through the max strength phase, and ignore the Power phase.

There's always risk of injury, whether you do it by my way or yours. I don't believe that you have a "major injury risk" from my Power work, IF you're ready for it. I always like to start the progression of any training, from a level that challenges you, but not too much, it's the same with the strength/Power work. For an example, start from ~20% of 1RM, and you won't have a major injury risk, if you have gone through the previous phases.

I think maybe I'm just not tracking what you're talking about when it comes to the speed of movement. It's all good.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

I think maybe I'm just not tracking what you're talking about when it comes to the speed of movement. It's all good.

Alan

I thought that too, that we are not just right there, on the same page. It's hard for me to describe by english precisely what I mean, but I still try to describe it. You must "feel" the right muscles and the find the rhythm to perform the sets as fast as possible, STILL being able to keep the technique. And you cannot do this by just heading into the gym and hit the weights after some stationary biking or so. You need a good warm up and your muscles pumped up before the Power sets. It should be obvious though that you must be able to hold your form, when doing the sets that I'm talking about. The words "as fast as possible" could easily create a wrong mental image of the workout. As fast as possible yes, while keeping the right rhythm and technique, without swinging around like a lunatic.

I think we can all agree that technique is key, you might see top level powerlifters doing reps as fast as possible but they never break down in form.

OP, any reason for no pilates, stretching, yoga, etc?