Me Too campaign is a failure for including sexual harassment

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

All He Does Is Win wrote:

Agreed. I enjoy it. Normally it's 'nice legs'. Gives a confidence boost.

Would love it if I was female and got 'you're hot' 'nice boobs' etc.

The difference between something that gives you a confidence boost and gives a female the willies is probably related to the fact that you haven't experienced the physical side of harassment that can and does accompany the comments for women, or the fact that you're probably as big or bigger than the people making the comments. Context and setting have a lot to do with the difference between complimentary and creepy. You are in no position to tell someone in a different situation how they should feel. Their feelings are valid.

You are wrong. Just because you feel harassed does not mean you are. Creep is just a derogatory word for unattractive men. A white woman might genuinely feel scared or harassed if a dark skinned man approached her at night to say hello. It is fine (and correct) to tell that woman that she should not feel that way.

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

A bunch of men on the internet minimizing women's feelings and life experiences is exactly the sort of thing the campaign is trying to draw attention to. So, I guess I agree it's ineffective, but only because men are tone deaf and lack empathy.

No one is doing that. But this is what you're doing:

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

All He Does Is Win wrote:

The message is pick your battles. There are significant and less significant problems. If you whinge about both you get nothing.

That's how it is in everything. Everyone has problems at work. If people whinge to me about 10 problems none are a priority. Give me two and they will be sorted.

So, your argument is you can't worry about women feeling unsafe, threatened, and harassed, because you have to spend so much energy making sure you aren't physically assaulting them? They aren't mutually exclusive. You can simultaneously not touch a woman without permission and not make inappropriate comments at the same time, without expending any more time or energy to make that happen.

No that's not what I'm saying. You can worry about everything. If you want to change things, you need to focus.

To top it off the idea of the 'raise awareness' campaign is odd too.

I understand that women get harassed. Everyone knows that it happens. The scale might be a little bit outside of men's understanding...but nothing about this is really helping get that scale down. I saw a few posts here and there, but it was by the exact people on my facebook who I expect to post in solidarity with every single one of these types of campaigns and by pretty much no 'conservative'-minded women.

Hell I know a girl two girls I am close friends with have both been harassed and assaulted and they played no part in it. These aren't people people who over the top Trump supporters that would never participate in anything with a liberal/feminist lean either. Just women who attend Church regularly and are slightly more traditional in how they view family values.

It doesn't appear the campaign is really getting the voices that would have an actual impact, and even if it did then what are the next steps?

The majority of men can continue to go about their lives not harassing women while men with lower social status or who simply haven't developed a good amount of social awareness will continue on as usual.

sexual assault >>> harassment wrote:

Virtually 100% of the population has been sexually harassed. As a male runner, I'm sexually harassed nearly every day of my life.

When my friends post "Me Too" on Facebook, I can't help brushing it off as, "Yeah, well me too, but it's not a big deal and nobody cares." Had the campaign limited itself strictly to sexual assault, the message would be far more powerful.

pics of that hot c*ck then, sweetmeats?

would love to see what everyone is so excited about!

We will have to agree to disagree. I would be in agreement if the issues being raised weren't related at all - like trying to raise awareness to sexual assault and global poverty at the same time. Sexual assault and harassment are very closely related and I don't believe it clouding the message to address both simultaneously.

sexual assault >>> harassment wrote:

Virtually 100% of the population has been sexually harassed. As a male runner, I'm sexually harassed nearly every day of my life.

When my friends post "Me Too" on Facebook, I can't help brushing it off as, "Yeah, well me too, but it's not a big deal and nobody cares." Had the campaign limited itself strictly to sexual assault, the message would be far more powerful.

I was thinking about posting the same. The campaign is kind of watered down with everyone's melodramatic posts about getting catcalled.

Yeah. And no terrorist attack has ever been stopped by a 'pray for Paris' profile photo.

Women should not have power. They immediately abuse it.

IndyJ wrote:

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

A bunch of men on the internet minimizing women's feelings and life experiences is exactly the sort of thing the campaign is trying to draw attention to. So, I guess I agree it's ineffective, but only because men are tone deaf and lack empathy.

No one is doing that. But this is what you're doing:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/there-will-be-no-debate/395252/

No. Telling a women it's JUST sexual HARASSMENT. And she shouldn't complain unless she is assaulted IS minimizing their feelings and life experiences. What we have is a group of men, saying that they don't feel threatened in situation X so a women shouldn't feel threatened in situation Y. You cannot do this. Go talk to a woman close to you and ask about their experiences. How it felt when they were cornered in that bar, showed no interest, but the man persisted and persisted. When a man bought her a drink, she said thanks but I'm not interested, but the man thought he was entitled to some interaction for plunking down $8. Or felt he was owed something after a night's conversation when she wasn't interested. Ask about the time her boss made unwelcome verbal advances and she felt helpless, unable to speak up for fear of ruining her career

This thread literally started by trying to minimize harassment. It's in the freakin' title of the thread. I'm not trying to shut down the debate, I'm trying to get some of you guys to open your eyes, that maybe these women have experienced something you don't understand and instead of telling them they're raising awareness incorrectly, maybe you should try to see if you can become more aware.

spade detector wrote:

We will have to agree to disagree. I would be in agreement if the issues being raised weren't related at all - like trying to raise awareness to sexual assault and global poverty at the same time. Sexual assault and harassment are very closely related and I don't believe it clouding the message to address both simultaneously.

Obviously you're wrong because a decent percentage of people here think it is. That's a lot of people who are losing interest so somebody can complain about a guy chatting them up at a bar. To what end?

If you're complaining for global poverty, you focus on the starving people. You don't include someone who can't afford to upgrade their iPhone 8 to an iPhone X.

I actually agree with this post, but I do feel that you're missing the subtlety of the argument against including it.

there is some annoying staff. when i was on holiday in the usa this sommer I went running with my sister, who is fit. whenever we would run close to a road people would honk. I am not kidding it was like three times in half an hour. We dont really give a shit, but i have never experienced anything like this in europe

i understand that many women have been abused or manipulated and harassed. but i do agree with the people on here saying this "me too" will undermine the weinstein problem.

yes its terrible to be harassed dont get me wrong, but this is different then what the weinstein issue is. in this scenario it is about powerful men that can make or break your career unless you obey their perverse desires.

some dude hitting on you at the bar has no bearing of if you get the promotion, staring role in a movie, full ride scholarship etc...

so to lump all these annoying chicks "me too" with the women who have been manipulated, blackmailed etc into having sex or perverse things by powerful men is wrong. the backfire on this is it becomes too much "me me me" and the true voices get shut out of the news cause the whole thing gets watered down. and it is going to cause a media controlled hatred against men, and then men are going to shun women in fear that they will be blackballed.

when in today's world you can shout the race card and ruin someones career or life, now this Me too will be a new card, and after that some sort of "i was offended card", thus making our society very very very controlled by fear of being accused and labeled. say you make eye contact with some chick for 1.5 seconds while your on the subway and she pulls the "me too" card...well you will be in trouble. anyone who has ever read 1984, fahrenheit 451 and other stories of this upcoming futures you will see where we are heading. soon everyone will be so afraid of their own neighbor, no one will make eye contact, no one will have an opinion of their own, no one will try to be an individual.

so for all the women out there who have been bullied, blackmailed, intimidated into having to fulfill some powerful mans sexual desires i feel for you. all you women who are jumping on the "me too" like its the newest thing since selfies you need to chill out

Who pays $8 for a drink? Y'all boujee.

All He Does Is Win wrote:

spade detector wrote:

We will have to agree to disagree. I would be in agreement if the issues being raised weren't related at all - like trying to raise awareness to sexual assault and global poverty at the same time. Sexual assault and harassment are very closely related and I don't believe it clouding the message to address both simultaneously.

Obviously you're wrong because a decent percentage of people here think it is. That's a lot of people who are losing interest so somebody can complain about a guy chatting them up at a bar. To what end?

If you're complaining for global poverty, you focus on the starving people. You don't include someone who can't afford to upgrade their iPhone 8 to an iPhone X.

I understand the subtly you're trying to convey, but this comment again demonstrates how much you're trying to minimize harassment and I disagree with that. "not getting the latest phone is to starving" is not even close to the same scale of analogy as "harassment is to assault." What I'm trying to say is that the harassment is worse and more alienating than some (most?) men realize.

Next steps? wrote:

I saw a few posts here and there, but it was by the exact people on my facebook who I expect to post in solidarity with every single one of these types of campaigns and by pretty much no 'conservative'-minded women.

I agree, and it's a big deal. It ends up just looking like the same slacktivist liberals mouthing off again on Facebook.

(I voted for both Clintons, Al Gore, and Barack Obama twice and I wouldn't elect Donald Trump as my household trash taker outer if he were running unopposed.)

you may not live in a major city...

but yeah, I could be bourgie. I like a deal as much as the next guy, but there are some goood $8 drinks out there.

David S. Pumpkins wrote:

All He Does Is Win wrote:

Obviously you're wrong because a decent percentage of people here think it is. That's a lot of people who are losing interest so somebody can complain about a guy chatting them up at a bar. To what end?

If you're complaining for global poverty, you focus on the starving people. You don't include someone who can't afford to upgrade their iPhone 8 to an iPhone X.

I understand the subtly you're trying to convey, but this comment again demonstrates how much you're trying to minimize harassment and I disagree with that. "not getting the latest phone is to starving" is not even close to the same scale of analogy as "harassment is to assault." What I'm trying to say is that the harassment is worse and more alienating than some (most?) men realize.

In that case, I've had the same. I'm sure most men have.

So we're basically back to 'think about how you behave towards other people'.

Not a very helpful message. The people who listen probably aren't dicks, and they people who are dicks wont listen.