Sub 4 over 40?

Fulton J. Sheen wrote:

A guy from Ireland did it many years ago. Let's see if I can spell his name correctly: Eaimon Coglan? Eamon Coglan? Something like that.

But he ran faster than 4:01 and didn't spend 20 years sitting around doing zero training.

20yearslater wrote:

Muscle mass decrease at 40 years old?

Don't worry about that, if you do what it takes to maintain muscle mass it will stay. Look at some pics of old bodybuilders, it's quite easy. Here's the real issues:

disadvantages: injuries, biomechanical troubles, joint troubles, possibly less elastic tendons

advantages: training wisdom, nerve and muscle "memory," know to listen to your body, coordination, efficiency

cold water: only former top elites have done it. Coghlan was Eamonn MF Coghlan. Lagat was Bernard MF Lagat. Whiteman wasn't MF but still ran in the low 3:30's.

un-cold water: Peaking high means peaking early. No, I have no data to back that up, but it makes sense; reaching top performances in athletics requires a lot of tissue building, which ultimately uses up stem cells. Maybe it's easier for non-elites to stay at their own top level for a long time than it is for elites. After all Lagat, Coghlan and Whiteman are all about PR - 10s over 40.

Eahmon coglin

Nuff said

Just don't end up like Steve Scott who ended his sub 4 attempt due to testicular cancer

20yearslater wrote:

I ran 401 mile/ 342 1500 20 years ago. Is it possible to go sub 4 now starting basically from scratch. Can it be done?

If you think so, What do I need to do and how long would it take? Quit my job? Nutrition? 2/day? Hire a coach? Maximize legal performance enhancers? Regular doctors visits/physical therapy? Train with someone faster?

If you think it can't be done, why not? Muscle mass decrease at 40 years old? Vo2 max? Testosterone? Time to train? Motivation? Psychology?

Sub-4 mile? No. Not possible. Sub-4 1500. Maybe, but probably not. Sub 5-mile? Probably, but maybe not.

If you have not done anything for 20 year, then you are too far behind. By the time you gain fitness back so even start training for it, you'll be a year or two down the road.

My question is: why? Life moves on. It's time to give up what you did as a youth, and do what you do as an adult. Meaning: running is for the young. Yea, you can still do it, but it now meaningless. It's good for Kevin Castille. For him, it's redemption. For you, it's just a mid-life crisis.

Move on.

I think the sub 4:00 mile is out of the question if OP is not going to supplement (and probably even if he is), but I think he may have a remote shot at a sub 4:00 1500. He says he is "basically starting from scratch" but that could mean some different things. He may have literally not run for 20 years and may be fat. On the other hand, he could be like lots of guys his age - coming in and out of the sport over time, but not having run consistently enough recently to feel in any way race ready.

Lots of people have gotten away from the sport and then come back to it as masters athletes and been able to have similar success to their earlier years when you adjust for age. I don't think a 1500m time 17 seconds slower than the OPs open time can be ruled out. I don't think I could come within :17 of my open 1500 time, which was soft in the first place, but that is because I don't train for that distance.

On the other hand, I ran with a 3:50 1500 guy in college who I would be surprised if he could break 4:30 in the 1500 at this point despite staying relatively thin and still being active just not running much).

For some folks, it is easy to get back close to their ceilings right away, for others it takes a ton of training. It is part of what makes running so interesting.

Even if possible, I don't think you will have the motivation to do it given you haven't done much in the last 20 years. Getting back in shape is lot of work and reality will demotivate you quickly.

I took off parts of my 20s and most of my 30s, but yet something clicked for me at some point and I got back into things in full swing at about age 40.

Anecdotal, I know, but it happens with some frequency, both at my lower level, and at the elite level (see John Trautmann).

Posted that under a trolling handle (one that many people use, so I am not giving much away there).

Lurker wrote:

I took off parts of my 20s and most of my 30s, but yet something clicked for me at some point and I got back into things in full swing at about age 40.

Anecdotal, I know, but it happens with some frequency, both at my lower level, and at the elite level (see John Trautmann).

I did not read all the responses, but only one man has done it in history. Anthony Whiteman - and he was a 1:45 / 3:32 man at age 29 and 26 respectively. He was not playing around when he did it.

AW not the only one.

The effects of aging on it's own:

1 sec/year if you continue to train seriously

2 sec/year if you are truly "staying active"

3 sec/year if you go to the gym "a couple time" or do nothing at all

Peek age for mile: 25.

Lagat at 40 can go 3:46 + 15 = 4:01

A 4:01 college runner who "stayed active"-can go 4:01 + 30 = 4:31

(If he starts training hard again)

A 4:01 college runner who did nothing or "worked out at the gym" - can go 4:01 + 45 = 4:47

(If he starts training hard again).

Yes...absolutely possible .....if:

- your 401 was off light training and you really had sub 350 potential

- you have exceptional longevity genes

- you do not get injured

- your life situation allows complete dedication.

No chance of sub 4 without any one of these. For you 430 would be unlikely but possible.

ydkwytap wrote:

[quote]The Overexplainer wrote:

I did not read all the responses, but only one man has done it in history. Anthony Whiteman - and he was a 1:45 / 3:32 man at age 29 and 26 respectively. He was not playing around when he did it.

AW not the only one.

Right, I forgot that Lagat did it (I think) because it was so recent and he competes in the EPO era. He is also #2 and #11 all time in the 1500m with only 3 all-time greats ahead of his 2nd best mark. He is an otherworldly talent. It is fair to say that he has more than just good genes going for him at age 40, 41 and 42 now.

Coghlan ran sub-4 in an indoor race. Don't make me explain to you why that doesn't count. I will give you a hint: banked turns. If you don't accept that, that is fine, let's just limit this to OUTDOOR miles.

Two people in all of history have done it, even the WR holders Walker and Moorcroft tried and could not reach it. Steve Scott (at one time the 2nd fastest in history) tried and could not reach it. So TWO in all the people who ever ran, so this guy (even though he was a very good runner at age 22) faces a tough slog. I don't see how anyone can do it who wasn't World Class and kept at it all through their 30's. That is the only way it was accomplished so far, by just two people.

More people have been to the Moon than have run a sub-4 as a 40-year-old. More people have succeeded in assassinating American Presidents than run sub-4 after age 40.

It is clearly not impossible, but the odds are long.

Possible on the right downhill if you get into pretty good downhill shape.

Get on a bike.

Sir Bastion Newbold wrote:

Anthony Whiteman...

And he was much faster in his peak. Plus he has been a full-time athlete for a while now.

OP: I'm a sub 4:30 miler at 41. I don't think it can be done for a variety of reasons.

1: you weren't able to break it when you were younger, so you definitely can't do it now. Plain and simple. Train all you want, your natural testosterone levels are way lower.

2: it's a stupid goal. Face it: you're an old man. Go race other old farts. We don't stand a chance against kids in their twenties.

I started from scratch (no history in track whatsoever - did no physical activity between 25-36) and it took me 4 years to discover I'm a middle distance guy, and it takes me way too much effort to get down to sub 4:15 in a 1500. I race on national level in Europe and I only know three athlete here who broke 4 for 1500 (the fastest is 3:57).

But they have no life... And also nobody besides themselves cares.

ZERO chance, especially because you ran 4:01, and then stopped. I'd bet 90% of the bloggers on this board, had they run 4:01, would have spent the next decade doing everything and anything they could to join the sub-4 club. Even if you had it physically, you don't have it mentally.

It is a formidable challenge. From my perspective I retired at 32, worked as a PT which involved a lot of running sessions with clients and started training again at age 39. Ran 1.50 flat with minimal training which convinced me to give the sub4 attempt a serious go!

My racing stats through the years are here.....http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=1748

World Masters are in Malaga in September next year and the 40-44 1500m is always a competitive event!

Good Luck!

TW